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Question/s to null and low sec players.
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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#21 - 2012-05-10 02:28:28 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself, but the reason hisec people stay in hisec isn't because they fear PvP. They fear gatecamps. They die to impossible odds right at the door to the full PvP areas, without having a chance to even explore them.

If they could get in and out of full PvP areas relatively safely, then only have to worry about someone hunting them while they are there, many, many, more people would be outside of hisec.

Gates need to go, or be changed so they can't be camped. They are the core problem here. I know many people hate the idea of losing their easymode gatecamp PvP, and having to actively search for targets instead of them landing in their lap, but it's really what's best for the game.

This is the funniest thing I've ever read. Posting to confirm that, nominally speaking, entering lowsec is as routine as you make it.

That said, why fear a camp when you can just use a scout and the damned map?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-05-10 02:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Bane Necran wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself, but the reason hisec people stay in hisec isn't because they fear PvP. They fear gatecamps. They die to impossible odds right at the door to the full PvP areas, without having a chance to even explore them.

If they could get in and out of full PvP areas relatively safely, then only have to worry about someone hunting them while they are there, many, many, more people would be outside of hisec.

Gates need to go, or be changed so they can't be camped. They are the core problem here. I know many people hate the idea of losing their easymode gatecamp PvP, and having to actively search for targets instead of them landing in their lap, but it's really what's best for the game.


You're wrong - existing players won't go to open PvP areas no matter what aspects of the game are changed. Scouting a gate in low-sec is as simple as jumping through in a pod and warping to a celestial if there is a gate camp waiting but you don't see players doing that.

I guess you're right about one thing, high sec players don't fear PvP - they fear dying. Slight difference.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#23 - 2012-05-10 02:31:33 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
This is the funniest thing I've ever read.


You obviously don't read much, but i already suspected that.

Quote:
That said, why fear a camp when you can just use a scout and the damned map?


Spoken like someone who's always been in 0.0, and can find scouts easily.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-05-10 02:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Bane Necran wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
This is the funniest thing I've ever read.


You obviously don't read much, but i already suspected that.

Quote:
That said, why fear a camp when you can just use a scout and the damned map?


Spoken like someone who's always been in 0.0, and can find scouts easily.


Scout it yourself in a pod.

But it is pretty telling that now your argument is distilled down to 'remove gates because I don't want to have to work with other people'. Perhaps you should stay out of dangerous space after all. There are other people in there.
Macks Artilius
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-05-10 02:33:54 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa
1) If you were CCP, how would you get more players involved in 0.0 space and low sec - without compromising or getting rid of high sec completely?
[/quote wrote:


The problem with getting into low and nul is getting into low and null. The high -> low gates are frequently camped by instalock battleships which means a scouting alt is pretty much a necessity.

What would I change? I'd make it possible to see what's at the other end of the gate without having to stick your head through and have it blown off. Alternatively I'd make the gate guns not suck.

[quote=Saia Tae Arragosa
3) If you believe that high sec, low sec and 0.0 can co-exist, what is your solution to bringing balanced game play to 0.0, low and high sec space that is amiable to all concerned?


Make it easier for small corps to circumvent the gatecamps and get themselves into one of the many deep null systems that are completely unoccupied. Something something wormholes. I dunno.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#26 - 2012-05-10 02:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Bane Necran wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
This is the funniest thing I've ever read.


You obviously don't read much, but i already suspected that.

Quote:
That said, why fear a camp when you can just use a scout and the damned map?


Spoken like someone who's always been in 0.0, and can find scouts easily.

This just in: The NPE happens in high-sec. Check my KB. Many kills (especially early on) are in low-sec. Some even in high-sec.

I said use a scout, not find a scout. Or didn't you know CCP hands out free trials and makes a second account practically free for the first month?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-05-10 02:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Tickles
You probably have to keep repeating that argument because it is so blatantly awful.

Again, if you think you're going to go take on lowsec all by yourself in your mission drake, you've already failed the transition. If getting blown up at your first gate doesn't teach you that lesson and instead makes you give up never to try again, then you were doomed anyway.

I do find it absolutely ball-busting hilarious that the people who have stuck themselves in hisec think they are in any way qualified to tell people who have made the transition what needs to change.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#28 - 2012-05-10 02:37:29 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
You probably have to keep repeating that argument because it is so blatantly awful.

Again, if you think you're going to go take on lowsec all by yourself in your mission drake, you've already failed the transition. If getting blown up at your first gate doesn't teach you that lesson and instead makes you give up never to try again, then you were doomed anyway.

I do find it absolutely ball-busting hilarious that the people who have stuck themselves in hisec think they are in any way qualified to tell people who have made the transition what needs to change.

AGREED! It's a matter of, "Excuse me, jailor. My prison cell is just a bit too drab. Could you take this very unbecoming door off of here, please?"

Also, nice hoodie bro!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-05-10 02:37:39 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
I do find it absolutely ball-busting hilarious that the people who have stuck themselves in hisec think they are in any way qualified to tell people who have made the transition what needs to change.


What they -can- tell us about is what they are afraid of in dangerous space.

But the argument that he is in a PvE fit missioning ship isn't a good one anyway, since people zoom around 0.0 in PvE missioning ships all the time because there is a lot of PvE to do in 0.0.

Those people just accept the risk that if they are caught in a PvE fit ship their only option is to try to escape rather than fighting their way out.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#30 - 2012-05-10 02:38:04 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
You're wrong - existing players won't go to open PvP areas no matter what aspects of the game are changed.


Ok, Nostradamus.

I think for some of you, the idea you have about hisec players has become out of touch with reality.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#31 - 2012-05-10 02:38:32 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:


What about CCP just works to get newbies into 0.0 - everyone who is in high sec now is a lost cause, the attitude is set in place and no game play changes will do anything but convince them that their attitude is right.

Get new players out into 0.0 and get them mining, missioning and doing all the same old stuff BEFORE the attitude can set in and they'll stay out there because once you're used to living in 0.0, empire seems very bland.



This is in all honesty the best course of action. Some minor limitations to danger may be put in place and the limitations expire after lets say a month. From personal experience, everyone I know that got killed and podded very early on or lived in 0.0 within days/weeks of starting has an entirely different attitude towards the game than this "omg griefers everywhere" crowd.

Also, severely shrink high sec in size. Remove all lucrative npcing and make asteroids tiny. So tiny that a hulk pops one per single strip miner cycle. Remove ice. Factories and labs become hundred fold more expensive if you're older than 30 days. Limit poses to small and make them cost as much as large poses outside of high sec. Also put in some harsh cap on the market order update frequency if you're older than 30 days, like once per day and increase taxes. Do all that and then I don't give s **** any more if they ban the activation of weapons vs player in high sec.

People keep saying high sec is for noobs. What I've mentioned above is perfectly fine for noobs. Noobs don't fly hulks. The career noobs, retards and blatant isk farmers can un-noob themselves or gtfo. They contribute nothing to the game anyway.

To get people out of high sec, it really has to become a pathetic place to live beyond your noob years. The attitude now is wtf do I need to leave high sec? I got everything here. In fact give me more and make it even easier. Roll Living outside of high sec needs to become the default natural progression.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-05-10 02:41:57 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
You're wrong - existing players won't go to open PvP areas no matter what aspects of the game are changed.


Ok, Nostradamus.

I think for some of you, the idea you have about hisec players has become out of touch with reality.


Given that newbees can adapt to 0.0 life perfectly easily, it seems to me that the problem isn't with the horrors of dangerous space so much as it is the players who are stuck in high sec.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#33 - 2012-05-10 02:44:43 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
You're wrong - existing players won't go to open PvP areas no matter what aspects of the game are changed.


Ok, Nostradamus.

I think for some of you, the idea you have about hisec players has become out of touch with reality.


Given that newbees can adapt to 0.0 life perfectly easily, it seems to me that the problem isn't with the horrors of dangerous space so much as it is the players who are stuck in high sec.

Oh snap! You weren't supposed to make sense!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#34 - 2012-05-10 02:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Assign high enough bounties for killed players in null-sec with progressive rewards for players who wasn't killed for a long time (or killed many other players without dieing) - and there will be non-stop fight on next day. Including present hi-sec incursion fleets.

Of course if there will be ship limits instead of unlimited force projection time dilated blob warfare.

EDIT: not necessary bounties in null-sec - maybe "arenas" / certain systems / gladiator fights / tournaments with rewards which could cover cost of blown ships. Like it was with games in MechWarrior where winner could take all salvage after fight. Because right now PvP seems to be too complicated to start and null-sec is too hostile for people without any PvP experience.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-05-10 02:45:11 UTC
Ludi Burek wrote:
This is in all honesty the best course of action. Some minor limitations to danger may be put in place and the limitations expire after lets say a month. From personal experience, everyone I know that got killed and podded very early on or lived in 0.0 within days/weeks of starting has an entirely different attitude towards the game than this "omg griefers everywhere" crowd.

Also, severely shrink high sec in size. Remove all lucrative npcing and make asteroids tiny. So tiny that a hulk pops one per single strip miner cycle. Remove ice. Factories and labs become hundred fold more expensive if you're older than 30 days. Limit poses to small and make them cost as much as large poses outside of high sec. Also put in some harsh cap on the market order update frequency if you're older than 30 days, like once per day and increase taxes. Do all that and then I don't give s **** any more if they ban the activation of weapons vs player in high sec.

People keep saying high sec is for noobs. What I've mentioned above is perfectly fine for noobs. Noobs don't fly hulks. The career noobs, retards and blatant isk farmers can un-noob themselves or gtfo. They contribute nothing to the game anyway.

To get people out of high sec, it really has to become a pathetic place to live beyond your noob years. The attitude now is wtf do I need to leave high sec? I got everything here. In fact give me more and make it even easier. Roll Living outside of high sec needs to become the default natural progression.


I disagree with changing high sec in any way - it is what it is and it's not going to change. Making substantial changes to high sec will just drive players to quit and that benefits nobody.

Abandon the players in high sec, they're not going to change either.

Focus on getting the new players out to 0.0 - CCP could do a lot to do this, but I think the larger 0.0 alliances could also contribute by hanging around the rookie systems and pulling the players out to 0.0 as they join. New players are the secret to GSF's success and they could be yours too!
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-05-10 02:46:38 UTC
Obviously something needs to change about the new player experience in hisec , where this aversion to risk is either inculcated or violently rejected in some unnecessary battle for the new players' soul.

I would actually have np with there being some pretty high-end incentives in hisec for people who work together and compete against others. It can't be higher than the avreage for null/low/whs, but it doesn't have to be at all abysmal.

Basically, if you can manage to get a player to get blown up willingly and blow somebody else up, you've pretty much got them hooked for life.

I don't have enough fingers or toes to count the number of my membership's real life friends from my old corp that we would take out in rifters, get them to tackle some red that we all blew up, then get him blown up, and then have them become hooked. It's really that simple; it's just unfortunate that not everyone has a real life friend to take them out for a tour.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#37 - 2012-05-10 02:52:38 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Given that newbees can adapt to 0.0 life perfectly easily, it seems to me that the problem isn't with the horrors of dangerous space so much as it is the players who are stuck in high sec.


They don't call them nullbears for nothing. What is there to adapt to? See stranger in local - warp to safety.

The hardest thing about living in 0.0 is getting there. After you're there, it's even safer than hisec.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-05-10 02:54:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Bane Necran wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Given that newbees can adapt to 0.0 life perfectly easily, it seems to me that the problem isn't with the horrors of dangerous space so much as it is the players who are stuck in high sec.


They don't call them nullbears for nothing. What is there to adapt to? See stranger in local - warp to safety.

The hardest thing about living in 0.0 is getting there. After you're there, it's even safer than hisec.


Yes, that's the point we are all making. Dangerous space isn't actually that dangerous and the fear of going there is completely irrational.

And since that is true, CCP should be working to get more new players out to 0.0 before the fear of dangerous space sets in because getting existing players out there is an exercise in psychology not in gameplay design.

PS: If it really was just 'gate camps' preventing players from going to low sec, they could easily scout themselves in with a pod just before or just after downtime - perhaps the issue is more complex than you think.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-05-10 02:56:30 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
They don't call them nullbears for nothing. What is there to adapt to? See stranger in local - warp to safety.

The hardest thing about living in 0.0 is getting there. After you're there, it's even safer than hisec.


Ignoring the classic misconceptions and falsehoods, getting there is actually the easiest part. You just set your med clone and kill yourself.

Again, you really have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, and unless you want to act as a caricature for us to use as examples, I suggest you just stop.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#40 - 2012-05-10 02:58:25 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
They don't call them nullbears for nothing. What is there to adapt to? See stranger in local - warp to safety.

The hardest thing about living in 0.0 is getting there. After you're there, it's even safer than hisec.


Ignoring the classic misconceptions and falsehoods, getting there is actually the easiest part. You just set your med clone and kill yourself.

Again, you really have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, and unless you want to act as a caricature for us to use as examples, I suggest you just stop.

I think Tickles just scored the /thread.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom