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New dev blog: Factional Warfare overhaul

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Author
IIXIII
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-05-09 21:17:26 UTC
thing that bugged me the most was that mecanical is minmatar, and every faction needs that for T2 ships, why not have that core be universal or even totaly seperated from the factions.

with the sugested layout, only minmatar T2 ship builders will be able to get all data cores from the LP/RP store. That cant be good.

yes alt posting like a boss
gfldex
#142 - 2012-05-09 21:20:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?


You are missing that exploding a big hostile fleet is going to make you the most money because those complexes have a fixed spawn rate. As more hostiles you got as more easy targets you will find. On top of that prices will go up for the faction that generates the least LP. You get LP not ISK and the value of you LP depends on the amount of competition you got. To get the most out of FW you want to share the least amount of friendlies in the killing.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#143 - 2012-05-09 21:21:54 UTC
Hay can someone in FW answer a question for me? If you kill a guy on your own FW team, do you get an LP hit? Does it hurt the standing of your char towards the faction you are enlisted with? Do you get a criminal flag? Can you get kicked out of your malitia?

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#144 - 2012-05-09 21:24:09 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Hay can someone in FW answer a question for me? If you kill a guy on your own FW team, do you get an LP hit? Does it hurt the standing of your char towards the faction you are enlisted with? Do you get a criminal flag? Can you get kicked out of your malitia?

You get GCC'd and lose a whole ton of standings.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#145 - 2012-05-09 21:25:28 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Hay can someone in FW answer a question for me? If you kill a guy on your own FW team, do you get an LP hit? Does it hurt the standing of your char towards the faction you are enlisted with? Do you get a criminal flag? Can you get kicked out of your malitia?

You get GCC'd and lose a whole ton of standings.

Might not be worth it then... Thanks Petrus!

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations
#146 - 2012-05-09 21:32:49 UTC
Congrats on the FW changes. I think they are great.

The datacores changes are not.

Datacores belong where they are, in R&D corps. They have nothing to do with factional warfare. This is just the old CCP way of thinking: Put a band aid on a problem that we will still have to fix later on. The problem with stems from the problems with T2 production and the lottery. That is what needs to be addressed. Adding datacores to LP stores and lowering the payout will simply raise invention costs and thus again raise prices on T2 items. Wasn't one of the main points of invention to lower prices? Recently prices on many T2 goods are almost at the same point of pre invention days. Many are higher. Just look a drones. Yes this has to do with PI and other factors (which are not problems, don't get me wrong), but why raise them more instead of addressing the real problem. You can find other ways to make FW LP stores more enticing besides screwing over people who have run missions to get access to good R&D agents and invested skill training and time into them. Besides the passive income from these datacores is not that great. I have been running agents for 5 years or so, and only cashed out 2 twice per agent or so (I have one I think i have never cashed out). The other day I calculated how much I would get by cashing out and selling all the cores and it was about 1.7 bil. If you think that is a lot for that amount of time, well we are not talking about the same game. And that is 5 agents, 4 of which are mechanical engineering.

And I have to add that it is astounding you would add cores to FW LP stores, and not R&D corp LP stores. Which reminds me, what ever happened to the special decryptors that were supposed to be in R&D LP stores years ago? Now is as good a time to mention them as any.

Don't go back to your old ways CCP.
Machiko Agota
Magota Industries
#147 - 2012-05-09 21:36:56 UTC
Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW Shocked...

MA
gwabakk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2012-05-09 21:39:48 UTC
So CCP does go on with nonsensical datacore changes, denying the major effort taken by many to get access to lvl 4 research agents, denying them to make invention a profitable business. I'm sorry CCP, but you are making changes to solve problems that are only in your imagination. No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little.

Changing FW, ok, but keep datacores out of it, they have nothing to do with it, and you are disandavtaging the wrong people
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-05-09 21:46:50 UTC
Great changes.

Passive income R&D tears should be plentiful (I have 5 R&D agents and this change is long overdue) 10k per core, nice.

My favorite is the people complaining that you are turning FW into null-sec lite. Yes they are. The whole point of FW was to be a gigantic war between the factions by conquering the enemies space. I don't really see the big deal with station lockout. Just drop FW for a day or get a neutral alt. It's not that hard. LP rewards for kills and offensive plexing sound very cool to me. Really tempted to rejoin FW now.

Oh and +1 for a cyno jammer upgrade.
Adunh Slavy
#150 - 2012-05-09 21:53:56 UTC
Would be nice if clones were cheaper in general so more people could participate in the meat grinder that is FW.

I've no interest in paying 40 million ISK for each clone. :P A million should be the limit.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-05-09 21:55:20 UTC
gwabakk wrote:
No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little.


Not sure what game you are playing but in EVE-Online that is exactly why people use research agents. In fact most people have research agents because you could easily fund an account through PLEX on datacores alone. Those days are long gone but all those people kept those accounts or just reactivate them one month per year to gain passive income.

You might use research agents to fund your personal t2 invention or whatever but I know people with huge datacore farms of many accounts and they gain a lot of passive income for little work. This is the majority of people using research agents. No amount of whining will change this fact.

Now you have to either interact with other people (gasp) or pvp in FW (double gasp) to gain lucrative items. Interaction and pvp in my EVE? Sounds cool.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-05-09 22:03:01 UTC
Urge...to join...FW...rising...fuuuuuuuuuu my carefully cultivated cross-empire standings will be ruined!
Geksz
The Fountain
#153 - 2012-05-09 22:05:12 UTC
Machiko Agota wrote:
Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW Shocked...

MA


Exactly!


Militia "grunts" gathering research data from an LP store in a contested system?Shocked

What is the story behind FW militia LP store handing out datacores?
How does a milita NPC corp come into the picutre in a contested military zone to hand out research datacores?
Aren't research done far away from fighting zones? What if the enemy captures them? I don't think any milita office wants to give the enemy their research data...Ugh

This seems VERY arbitrary, and far from beliveable.


Also if u want to have good level 4 research agents u have to grind standings, and after that u have to travel a lot to gather the Datacores since the agents are scattered across the universe. It's far from passive...Straight

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#154 - 2012-05-09 22:13:56 UTC
Quote:
Militia "grunts" gathering research data from an LP store in a contested system?

It's actually quite clever. What you are doing is gathering field data and testing new equipment, thus enabling research. More seriously, the "it makes no sense" argument makes a superficially correct point, but considering that Eve's manufacturing system is already heavily dissociated (information does not get used up in the manufacturing process; why manufacturers have to keep re-inventing the same hulls and equipment? etc...), I don't see how it really matters.

I think it's better because it makes each of militia stores more unique. though I do agree restricting mechanical engineering to the TLF store is a poor choice.
Cosmoes
Peraka
#155 - 2012-05-09 22:17:03 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
gwabakk wrote:
No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little.


Not sure what game you are playing but in EVE-Online that is exactly why people use research agents. In fact most people have research agents because you could easily fund an account through PLEX on datacores alone. Those days are long gone but all those people kept those accounts or just reactivate them one month per year to gain passive income.

You might use research agents to fund your personal t2 invention or whatever but I know people with huge datacore farms of many accounts and they gain a lot of passive income for little work. This is the majority of people using research agents. No amount of whining will change this fact.

Now you have to either interact with other people (gasp) or pvp in FW (double gasp) to gain lucrative items. Interaction and pvp in my EVE? Sounds cool.


How did you calculate that?

lets say 120 rp per day (I get 117.45 with max skills)
6 agents on each of your 3 characters (also pretty high as I find 5 is already plenty as to get 6 it's a 2 mil sp skill)
30 days in a month and 50 rp per datacore
300k for a datacore (current mechanical datacore's are 200k buy 288k sell from eve central)

120 * 18 * 30 * 300,000 / 50 = 388,800,000


plex prices are up in the 460's-480's
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-05-09 22:26:21 UTC
Glad to see FW getting some love. Thanks for CCP for making sure more parts of the sandbox get some much-needed attention.
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#157 - 2012-05-09 22:36:13 UTC
"we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned"

The only way existing datacore *hores can abandon research is to abandon their account, they cant unlearn the months of SP, or unget the months of grinding standings for access to agents.

A better measure would be for you to look at how many new players are getting involved with R&D agents.
Geksz
The Fountain
#158 - 2012-05-09 23:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Geksz
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
Militia "grunts" gathering research data from an LP store in a contested system?

It's actually quite clever. What you are doing is gathering field data and testing new equipment, thus enabling research. More seriously, the "it makes no sense" argument makes a superficially correct point, but considering that Eve's manufacturing system is already heavily dissociated (information does not get used up in the manufacturing process; why manufacturers have to keep re-inventing the same hulls and equipment? etc...), I don't see how it really matters.

I think it's better because it makes each of militia stores more unique. though I do agree restricting mechanical engineering to the TLF store is a poor choice.


Well ok, that seems reasonable (to gather intel and test out new equipment) but then again, research is done far from fighting zones. Ur intel will be trasferred to research stations and such to develop stuff based on ur data, and then send back experimental, and advanced weapons and modules to the front to use them and test them. And that goes in cycles. They don't send back research data.

Manufacturing and invention related stuff has a meaningful mechanic that serves the economy well in EVE. U can't really compare this change to that.
We have a lot of arbitraray stuff in eve, that breaks immersion, we don't need more. Especially something like this one.

This change gives the impression like: CCP was thinking about how to change datacore gathering from the old and forgotten research agent system for a long time now but couldn't think of a good way yet. Then the summer of rage and stuff after that happened and they had to focus attention on things that mattered for players. So they pulled FW, and somebody had this "great" idea, to give more incentives for players to get into FW, and slowly migrate datacores and FW together (as i think if it succeeds, datacores will be only avalible from the FW LP store "soon", as they iterate on FW in the coming expansions).
It's like they always try to do the easiest and straightest way no matter the cost, and the collateral damage...

If they aren't satisfied with the "passive" nature of the datacore acquisition, then why not develop a new mechanic for it wich requires more player interaction? Why tie it to a completly unrelated part of the game?
Shaera Taam
Khanid Prime Free Irregulars
#159 - 2012-05-09 23:27:06 UTC
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:
"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?

Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.


this. so much this.

i know, agreeing with a goon, huh? but the truth hurts sometimes...

+1 FW love, -1 DC nerf

/me heads off to unsub that second research-alt account...

Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-05-09 23:30:22 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Shar Tegral wrote:
Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.


We´re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes.

If something doesn´t end up the way we like it, they´ll change it. Once it´s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they´ll move on and do more new FW features.

Winter is going to be pretty sweet.


This might be a good oportunitiy to change the datacore-requirements of many invention jobs. It always irritated me, that about 75% (estimated) of invention jobs need ME datacores, a more balanced distribution of the needed datacores might be a good thing.
On the other hand, if ME stays Minmatar only, joining Amarr militia might be a good way to troll all of Eve by making ME datacores nearly unobtainable to everyone and drive t2 prices skyhigh.
On second thought, this will never happen- hundreds of players would join Minmatar militia for the sake of t2 wepaons and ships - so currently it will be impossilble for Amarr to win.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.