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New dev blog: Factional Warfare overhaul

First post First post
Author
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#101 - 2012-05-09 19:35:22 UTC
Bienator II wrote:

of course. but not everyone thinks like you do. Some see being in the winning team as boring. Those who want pvp won't use the imbalanced side since they want targets. It'tll balance itself.


That in itself will not make a militia successful.


The real issue actually becomes if one militia is dominating so powerfully and cleans up a whole system, they can't make any more LP.

Ships to shoot will dry up, plexes to attack will dry up, ihubs to attack will be gone, etc.


So, success will have its own failures. The losing side may actually be able to provide cheaper datacores and LP through guerilla style tactics (hitting plexes on off hours, and so on) despite losing.

Where I am.

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#102 - 2012-05-09 19:41:23 UTC
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?

-Liang

I don't think player behavior will go that way. I for one would rather join the side that is loosing the war (unless it's amarr... never joining them) because you know there will be plenty of targets and joining the side that is already winning isn't much of an accomplishment. Some people would rather turn the tide of the war than mooch off the side that's winning, besides, you can always have an alt join the other team. Twisted In terms of absolute fighters, the winning side's numbers will probably tend to inflate more quickly... but I don't think victory will be stable as those who want to fight defect for the loosing side.

Would you join the side whose enemies could blob at will when they want to lock you out of your home or the ones doing the blobbing for lulz. The latter seems more fun from a gaming perspective even before the economic benefit.

I've been playing for a while. ISK is less relevant to me. The concept of "home" is totally irrelevant. If I need more spaceships I buy them. You can't buy targets though. If you ever have a problem with getting blobbed in station just make a bookmark 300-whatever km directly from undock on every station and you can instawarp on undock before anyone can lock you. Those of us with -10 that still go to Jita do that in shuttles... works with anything though. Obviously the blob would anihalate me solo so I'm not taking it in, but in every blob there's a few ships trying to catch up and a few ships leaving the fleet. Those would be my bread and butter... we will see though I'm sure game for doing a little FW at launch. Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Zakurai
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-05-09 19:42:07 UTC
All the faction war stuff is good, and all, I'd join it if RvB isn't like a vastly cheaper consequence free version of fw. I say the biggest problem with people joining faction war is the massive standing loss that they will receive with the opposing faction. While it completely makes sense to do so, it kills most of my ambition to join as I might join a corp later on in my eve career that lives in the area of Empire that you can't be in for having low standings.

The data cores will be a disaster for all non FW people with R&D agents. I myself have invested a lot of time and money to become a self sufficient T2 producer on a single account (trained all 3 toons for R&D, no alt accounts). All this time I invested was for being able to cash in on the datacores I researched by using them directly to make stuff so i can fund pvp without ratting or grinding missions. You need to look at the whole chain of t2 production, the datacore is the passive phase of process. Making these changes will lead to the exact same situation we had with rigs being too expensive to use a couple years ago. The major difference is that EVERYBODY uses t2 right now, everything from the ships to t2 drones will go up in price to meet demand, and then nobody will be able to fly anything remotely cheap, so they will be reluctant to loose it.Sad

Unless your ultimate goal is to have people just buy plexes to cash in to fund their PVP, leave the RP alone.
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#104 - 2012-05-09 19:42:18 UTC
Changes and consequences are finally coming to FW. Excellent.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-05-09 19:45:23 UTC
Zakurai wrote:

Unless your ultimate goal is to have people just buy plexes to cash in to fund their PVP, leave the RP alone.



um... you haven't been watching the Next store issues and a good number of other things?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Celebris Nexterra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-05-09 19:45:37 UTC
T'san Manaan wrote:
Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live.

Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future.

1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone.
2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems
3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents.
4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status.

Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemiesTwisted


I want to like this post, but I in no way support making life as a pirate even harder. I agree with station lockouts including those with negative faction status so that it (negative facstat) matters outside of highsec/FW. Also, there's no real reason to include outlaws anyway.
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#107 - 2012-05-09 19:48:19 UTC
Celebris Nexterra wrote:
T'san Manaan wrote:
Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live.

Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future.

1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone.
2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems
3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents.
4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status.

Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemiesTwisted


I want to like this post, but I in no way support making life as a pirate even harder. I agree with station lockouts including those with negative faction status so that it (negative facstat) matters outside of highsec/FW. Also, there's no real reason to include outlaws anyway.

It wouldn't matter to pirates b/c w/ the new crimewatch outlaws can buy officer and commander tags and up their standings. Blink

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Zakurai
Perkone
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-05-09 19:49:39 UTC
I just mean that it would be far easier to spend $15 to buy a plex to cash in on 400mill isk (or whatever it goes for now) to fuel your pvp than try to find sustainable income. All of that Nex store stuff is just a way to get isk out of the economy to manage inflation.
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-05-09 19:53:30 UTC
Two comments about the changes:

Quote:
[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000


Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it.


Quote:
As such, with Inferno, all stations within a low-security Factional Warfare system will now deny docking to any factional enemy (neutrals will remain unaffected).


This seems to be more annoying than anything. The only thing it will accomplish is to force FW combatants to drop FW or leave their player corp for a few days so that they can grab their assets again. And did I mention doing this will annoy a lot of people?

If the idea is to give people incentives to defend a system, then just put a fine for docking, instead of preventing it. The fine could be isk and/or LP and the value could either be fixed or some function based on how long the opposing faction is holding the system or how much upgraded is its iHub.

All in all, the changes look solid.

:sand:  over  :awesome:

Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#110 - 2012-05-09 19:55:12 UTC
Tressin Khiyne wrote:
Will there be a skill reimbursement for R&D skills? It seems that the weight of the change lends itself to giving players a chance to rethink their choice in training those skills.


This please at least. I mean people spent a lot of isk for books, a lot to time training skills, and a lot of time grinding for good agents to get datacores to use for invention and/or sell.

You put this in place when you took away the T2 BPO auctions, so it's not like a cheat or exploit.

You are changing that now (what in the world do datacores have to do with fleet warfare?).

The fair thing would be some sort of reimbursement, even if you can't reimburse people's time spent.

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-05-09 19:56:38 UTC
Zakurai wrote:
I just mean that it would be far easier to spend $15 to buy a plex to cash in on 400mill isk (or whatever it goes for now) to fuel your pvp than try to find sustainable income. All of that Nex store stuff is just a way to get isk out of the economy to manage inflation.


and to get people that wouldn't normally buy plex to buy More plex

you may be paying for your subscription now, but if you cant fund your various activities in the game with ingame made isk, you might buy plex to supplement your income,

while that doesn't change the fact that you are supplying someone else's game time, having Plex related sinks, (like the Next store) means that some of your cash is buying ingame items and not going to be used for the extension of someones account.

If Next store stuff was there solely for the purposes of Isk inflation then it would be directly purchasable for isk. however it is not. the involvment Plex means that it is more directly related to cash income then isk inflation control.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#112 - 2012-05-09 19:56:49 UTC
Orisa Medeem wrote:
Two comments about the changes:

Quote:
[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000


Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it.

If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-05-09 19:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Orisa Medeem wrote:
Two comments about the changes:

Quote:
[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000


Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it.

If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP.



with the ship LP changes, it makes a lot of sense for FW players to keep abnormally high ship costs in the regions that are contested while alt shipping in ships to be put on contracts for either side to purchase. Because it is now in the best interests for both factions to keep market prices high, they will no longer compete for cheap ships for their own militas on the open market. but rather through contracts which are not counted in the LP price index for ships/fittings.

Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)

now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module.

Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP
(overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed)

Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules.
now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion ....

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#114 - 2012-05-09 20:03:14 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Orisa Medeem wrote:
Two comments about the changes:

Quote:
[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000


Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it.

If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP.



with the ship LP changes, it makes a lot of sense for FW players to keep abnormally high ship costs in the regions that are contested while alt shipping in ships to be put on contracts for either side to purchase. Because it is now in the best interests for both factions to keep market prices high, they will no longer compete for cheap ships for their own militas on the open market. but rather through contracts which are not counted in the LP price index for ships/fittings.

Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)

now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module.

Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP
(overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed)

Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules.
now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion ....

I would hope that CCP is smart enough to

  1. Make the used prices be a global average
  2. Use Sell orders, not Buy orders to price them
  3. Make it delayed by an unspecified amount of time
  4. Average price changes on a smoothed running aveage curve


If they didn't, then yeah, this is going to turn out into a horrible, horrible gaming of the system.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#115 - 2012-05-09 20:04:26 UTC
Just have one question... moving datacores to FW LP stores means that they can't be obtained through research agents as usual?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#116 - 2012-05-09 20:07:17 UTC
General remark with regards to the doomsday predictions of many people: if CCP lives up to their word on iterating on things (and they at least look like they intend to), then they will tweak this, adding reasons to join a "losing" side if it becomes necessary.

If they don't touch FW for another 20 years, then it's going to end up screwed no matter how stellar and awesome Inferno is.

So... chill and trust in CCP to do what they said they'd do.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-05-09 20:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Regarding R&D agent changes to make sure I understand:
1. The RP/day rates for datacores that currently cost 50RP staying the same, effectively halving the amount that can be obtained in a given period of time.
2. RP for other types with different multipliers will end up the same due to their multipliers being removed

If those are correct, does this mean that RP for an x3 modifier datacore can be used to purchase 3(+10k isk/core) after the change for every 2 you would be able to purchase now? Or are the amounts of already accumulated RP going to be altered to account for this?

Also will R&D agent prices for datacores be changing with factional FW performance or is this just the FW LP obtained cores?
Zakurai
Perkone
Caldari State
#118 - 2012-05-09 20:11:07 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Zakurai wrote:
I just mean that it would be far easier to spend $15 to buy a plex to cash in on 400mill isk (or whatever it goes for now) to fuel your pvp than try to find sustainable income. All of that Nex store stuff is just a way to get isk out of the economy to manage inflation.


and to get people that wouldn't normally buy plex to buy More plex

you may be paying for your subscription now, but if you cant fund your various activities in the game with ingame made isk, you might buy plex to supplement your income,

while that doesn't change the fact that you are supplying someone else's game time, having Plex related sinks, (like the Next store) means that some of your cash is buying ingame items and not going to be used for the extension of someones account.

If Next store stuff was there solely for the purposes of Isk inflation then it would be directly purchasable for isk. however it is not. the involvment Plex means that it is more directly related to cash income then isk inflation control.


I agree, and there will be an influx of Plex purchasers to keep funding they're current gameplay style. If all of a sudden, that tackling rifter cost you 20-30mill to fly it might not be too bad initially, but just think about all the cruiser and up costs. Since mods are universal from ship to ship, they will each get far more expensive to fly. Sides, I was a carebear a while back, trying to convince them to drop a bunch of isk to fly something that they will most likely loose is a tough sales pitch.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#119 - 2012-05-09 20:11:32 UTC
Do the devs have any plans to expand/change what system upgrades do? Because right now there isn't a great deal of incentive for people to invest their scarce LP in improvements, because the improvements are pretty weaksauce. Reduced clone costs aren't going to be that big a deal because the relative ease of getting your pod out in lowsec; lowsec industry and commerce is virtually non-existent (as far as I'm aware) on account of logistical issues, and a fairly paltry improvement isn't about to make anyone change their minds.

Assorted terrible ideas
-Reduced repair costs in upgraded systems (militia-only)
-Improved insurance payout for insurance contracts purchased in upgraded systems (milita-only)
-Bonuses to production of faction-appropriate ships and modules in upgraded militia systems.

I agree with the sentiments people have already expressed on the subject of positive feedback, but I don't really have anything to add on that front other than concern.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-05-09 20:11:35 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I would hope that CCP is smart enough to

  1. Make the used prices be a global average
  2. Use Sell orders, not Buy orders to price them
  3. Make it delayed by an unspecified amount of time
  4. Average price changes on a smoothed running aveage curve


If they didn't, then yeah, this is going to turn out into a horrible, horrible gaming of the system.



so id have to put several obscene priced orders in a few regions to get the full benifit of this? im sure there are a few people in some of the nullsec areas that would happily do this with me if we consorted with alts. any module that has no real use (and there are quite a few) can be put up with minimal isk outlay.

It doesn't matter, what buy/sell order you use. Even Jita sees massive manipulation for items all the time.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.