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Battlecruisers are MBTs of EVE...

Author
Kalli Brixzat
#21 - 2012-05-09 19:37:16 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
PS: Also "Lol" at a Cruiser being able to cover one aspect of a BC by making sacrifices .. they are faster and smaller but that is the extent of it, they can never, ever achieve same EHP or damage (would love to see the Ruppie fit that supposedly equals the Cane in damage though).

Hmm... I suppose I was wrong, I can only make a reasonable Rupture fit go up to about 500 dps. Still, that's not bad for an 8 mil hull.


Let me present you the 733 dps Rupture:

[Rupture, New Setup 9]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Large Shield Extender II

425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4

Turrets: 459 DPS ( Overloaded : 528 DPS)
Missiles: 80 DPS ( Overloaded : 94 DPS)
Drones: 110 DPS

Dont look at EHP tho.


Solid fit. Don't look at the EHP, huh? lol why, because this is almost tankless, perhaps?

Rupture has just north of 1500 shield HP base and north of 16 armor HP base. Those Extender rigs give %-based increases. In other words, totally useless here. That, and the last thing a T1 Cruiser with a shyte tank needs is sig-bloom. Get rid of them.

Keep teh Anti-EM rig if you must. Fit a prop frig an A/C rig (damage or RoF- your choice). LSE II is fine. That, plus the speed, is all the tank you rightfully need.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#22 - 2012-05-09 19:38:46 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
reasonable Rupture fit

Butzewutze wrote:
Let me present you the 733 dps Rupture:

That will get killed by a single frigate. I could set up a Hurricane to do as much damage as a Sleipnir does, but that would be a bad idea because that ship would suck.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Tazarak theDeceiver
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#23 - 2012-05-09 20:00:24 UTC
Battlecruisers are what's right with Eve. For the cost of one recon or logistic boat, I can go out and burn 5-6 drakes and have hours of endless fun fighting.

Buff up low cost ships... really wish cruisers were stronger and there were battle logistics and recons which were in the 40-50m isk price range to fly.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-05-09 20:06:26 UTC
Just because cruisers arent battlecruisers it doesent make them useless or bad.


Looking forward to next patch and tiercide.
Wingmate
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-05-09 20:28:12 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
That will get killed by a single frigate. I could set up a Hurricane to do as much damage as a Sleipnir does, but that would be a bad idea because that ship would suck.


sure, but it's great for DPS in pve situations! =)

not that a tier-3 BC isn't better, but what the heck? fly something different for a change.

i make spreadsheets for pretty cheap. contact me for more info.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=197433

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#26 - 2012-05-09 20:32:14 UTC
Wingmate wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
That will get killed by a single frigate. I could set up a Hurricane to do as much damage as a Sleipnir does, but that would be a bad idea because that ship would suck.


sure, but it's great for DPS in pve situations! =)

not that a tier-3 BC isn't better, but what the heck? fly something different for a change.

Meh, it's great for DPS in PvP situations where you're sure you won't get shot, and you're shooting at something you can hit with Hail in 425mm guns.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-05-09 20:32:54 UTC
Wingmate wrote:
cruisers are significantly faster and more agile than BCs, and cost way less than HACs. they're meant to add punch and tank to a frigate gang, in the same way that BSes add punch and tank to a BC gang, without sacrificing the 4-5s warp time that most frigate gangs use to stay mobile and ahead of the competition. losing one fully fitted also costs less than a BC hull alone.

alternatively, babydrakes (like caracals) are cheap and can fit long-range heavy missiles easily. three caracals is the equivalent of two drakes in terms of damage, and costs way less. it's also way, way more mobile, and allows for more fleet flexibility because of the agility and ability to kite.

also, a mwd-ing cruiser is usually up past 2km/s, whereas most BCs can't break 1400m/s. so it can function as a heavy tackle when you don't want to use (and lose) an assault ship.


Actually I have to call BS here, or partial BS anyway, Perhaps its true of non Matari Battlecruisers, a mwd on a Caracal without other speed mods gets you 1387 m/s and a mwd on a Hurricane without other speed mods gets you 1311 m/s this is not significantly faster, while the Caracal will align 3.1 seconds faster the hurricane isn't trying to orbit you tightly if you are in a cruser, he's coming straight at you as fast as he can. Better tracking for his guns and he out tanks you. Bear in mind that Caldari ships are among the most agile in their class, typically about tied with Minmatar ships of the same class in agility and you realize that the agility benefit of Gallente and Amarr ships is even less. Amarr Cruisers are a little slower than equivalent Caldari Cruisers and Gallente Cruisers are a bit Faster, but neither will do much over 1500 m/s with a mwd and no other speed mods. A Stabber will do over 2400 m/s with a mwd and no other speed mods, but there you go, its a winmater.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#28 - 2012-05-09 20:47:36 UTC
Zyress wrote:
A Stabber will do over 2400 m/s with a mwd and no other speed mods, but there you go, its a winmater.

It also gets a speed bonus, is made of paper, and is an absolute failure of a ship. Hardly "winmater".

If you want to accuse ships of "Winmatar" status, at least use the right ones. Compare the Rupture to the Maller or the Moa.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-09 20:55:14 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Zyress wrote:
A Stabber will do over 2400 m/s with a mwd and no other speed mods, but there you go, its a winmater.

It also gets a speed bonus, is made of paper, and is an absolute failure of a ship. Hardly "winmater".

If you want to accuse ships of "Winmatar" status, at least use the right ones. Compare the Rupture to the Maller or the Moa.


Yeah but a Rupture with a mwd and no other speed mods does just under 1600 m/s and I was looking for an example of a T1 Cruiser that does over 2 k/m as stated in the post I was responding to.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#30 - 2012-05-09 20:58:09 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Zyress wrote:
A Stabber will do over 2400 m/s with a mwd and no other speed mods, but there you go, its a winmater.

It also gets a speed bonus, is made of paper, and is an absolute failure of a ship. Hardly "winmater".

If you want to accuse ships of "Winmatar" status, at least use the right ones. Compare the Rupture to the Maller or the Moa.


Yeah but a Rupture with a mwd and no other speed mods does just under 1600 m/s and I was looking for an example of a T1 Cruiser that does over 2 k/m as stated in the post I was responding to.

That's okay, I just take offense every time Minmatar is called "Winmatar", but especially when it's done so wrongly (and spelled wrong).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Perihelion Olenard
#31 - 2012-05-09 21:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Butzewutze wrote:

Let me present you the 733 dps Rupture:

[Rupture, New Setup 9]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Large Shield Extender II

425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4

Turrets: 459 DPS ( Overloaded : 528 DPS)
Missiles: 80 DPS ( Overloaded : 94 DPS)
Drones: 110 DPS

Dont look at EHP tho.


The rupture has the powergrid for all that?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#32 - 2012-05-09 21:06:19 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
The rupture has the powergrid for all that?

Yeah, just about. It's also the only cruiser that can fit a rack of its native guns, a prop mod, and a 1600mm plate without needing fitting mods. Yeah, that includes the Maller, which is supposed to be a buffer tanking laser platform. Problem?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Alara IonStorm
#33 - 2012-05-09 21:11:36 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Yeah, just about. It's also the only cruiser that can fit a rack of its native guns, a prop mod, and a 1600mm plate without needing fitting mods. Yeah, that includes the Maller, which is supposed to be a buffer tanking laser platform. Problem?

Another problem with Armor Cruisers is that just to be considered passable they need a Battleship sized plate.

800mm and rigs still nerfs your speed lower then a Shield Cane while giving you far less HP. I really think if they want to fix Cruisers that has got to be something that needs to change.

Armor Cruisers being good without needing a Battleship plate is something to wish for.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#34 - 2012-05-09 21:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Yeah, just about. It's also the only cruiser that can fit a rack of its native guns, a prop mod, and a 1600mm plate without needing fitting mods. Yeah, that includes the Maller, which is supposed to be a buffer tanking laser platform. Problem?

Another problem with Armor Cruisers is that just to be considered passable they need a Battleship sized plate.

800mm and rigs still nerfs your speed lower then a Shield Cane while giving you far less HP. I really think if they want to fix Cruisers that has got to be something that needs to change.

Armor Cruisers being good without needing a Battleship plate is something to wish for.


50mm and 100mm plates are useless.

Frigates have 200mm as light plates (easy to fit), and 400mm as heavy plates (hard to fit).
Cruisers/BCs have 800mm as light plates (easy to fit), and 1600mm as heavy plates (hard to fit).
Battleships have... 1600mm plates (easy to fit)?

It's battleship sized plates that are missing. Slightly lower tank and fitting reqs for all existing plates, delete 50mm and 100mm plates, and add 3200mm and 6400mm plates. Now cruiser tank is easier, and battleships have a reason to fit non-maximum-size guns (in order to take care of their tank).

Oops... this isn't F&I...

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Alara IonStorm
#35 - 2012-05-09 21:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

50mm and 100mm plates are useless.

Frigates have 200mm as light plates (easy to fit), and 400mm as heavy plates (hard to fit).
Cruisers/BCs have 800mm as light plates (easy to fit), and 1600mm as heavy plates (hard to fit).
Battleships have... 1600mm plates (easy to fit)?

It's battleship sized plates that are missing. Slightly lower tank and fitting reqs for all existing plates, delete 50mm and 100mm plates, and add 3200mm and 6400mm plates. Now cruiser tank is easier, and battleships have a reason to fit non-maximum-size guns (in order to take care of their tank).

Oops... this isn't F&I...

Armor Battleships don't need anymore HP. They are already far ahead of Shield with what already exists. What's more do we need to further brick the game? More then enough HP as is. 1600mm Plates give them enough. I don't think Battlecruisers should be fitting Battleship sized plates realistically ether. Make them like Large Neutralizers, Cap Boosters and Microwarp Drives with massive PG need.

The key is to actually fix Cruiser sized plates. You said "Cruisers/BCs have 800mm as light plates (easy to fit)," but you're wrong they don't 800mm Plates because no Armor Cruiser pilot fits 800mm Plate they all fit massive 1600mm Plates. Otherwise they just plain suck and you know this.

Fix the disparity between Shield and Armor and you won't need oversized plates on everything to make it passable. Then maybe they can introduce Battleship sized shield extenders.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#36 - 2012-05-09 21:59:44 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
*snip*



I only liked this post because it's the first post I've ever read from you where you don't mess up 'they're, there & their' (always makes me throw up a little despite failing at English myself).

The currrent problem with Tier2 BC's (and to a lesser extent Tier 1 BCs) is the fact that they use cruiser sized weapons and thus, are far too effective vs frigs and cruisers.

Their tank is fine, but they are dealing full damage against any ship equal or larger than them, their smaller cousins (cruisers) and still hit frigs and destroyers pretty well.

They should all receive a penalty on gun range, tracking and signature resolution or just fit be able to fit fewer large guns whilst doing the same overall DPS on paper. I've actually proposed that even before Tier3 BCs were even announced.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Alara IonStorm
#37 - 2012-05-09 22:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Large Collidable Object wrote:

I only liked this post because it's the first post I've ever read from you where you don't mess up 'they're, there & their' (always makes me throw up a little despite failing at English myself).

I did that with no prior planning. One of these days I was bound to stumble upon the right use of the words by plain out probability.

BTW. You know what makes me throw up. Spelling current with three r's.
Large Collidable Object wrote:

The currrent problem with Tier2 BC's (and to a lesser extent Tier 1 BCs) is the fact that they use cruiser sized weapons and thus, are far too effective vs frigs and cruisers.

No it isn't. They are meant to kill off Cruisers and be effective against them.
Large Collidable Object wrote:

Their tank is fine, but they are dealing full damage against any ship equal or larger than them, their smaller cousins (cruisers) and still hit frigs and destroyers pretty well.

Yes their tank is fine. I don't want to see it nerfed.
Large Collidable Object wrote:

They should all receive a penalty on gun range, tracking and signature resolution or just fit be able to fit fewer large guns whilst doing the same overall DPS on paper. I've actually proposed that even before Tier3 BCs were even announced.

No they shouldn't.

The problems they have are wide spread. Armor Cruisers slower then Shield Battlecruisers that have to cram on 1600mm Plates is one thing. But the list goes on and on. When it comes down to it the issues have to do with speed, utility, bonuses, base stats, slot layout, damage and fitting. Some Cruisers have the problem some don't.

As long as Armor needs 1600mm Plates on tiny hulls to stay relevant you won't fix the speed issue.

Biggest thing they can do is remove Rig Penalties. Right away makes makes Armor Cruisers as fast as Shield BC. Extenders and Plates already handle Mass and Sig while Active is Cap vs Amount.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#38 - 2012-05-09 22:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Alara IonStorm wrote:

No they shouldn't.

The problems they have are wide spread. Armor Cruisers slower then Shield Battlecruisers that have to cram on 1600mm Plates is one thing. But the list goes on and on. When it comes down to it the issues have to do with speed, utility, bonuses, base stats, slot layout, damage and fitting. Some Cruisers have the problem some don't.

As long as Armor needs 1600mm Plates on tiny hulls to stay relevant you won't fix the speed issue.

Biggest thing they can do is remove Rig Penalties. Right away makes makes Armor Cruisers as fast as Shield BC. Extenders and Plates already handle Mass and Sig while Active is Cap vs Amount.


Yes - armor rig penalties are out of whack and need to be changed to something just as irrelevant as sig radius boost.


The speed issue is an entirely different topic an the reason why I think Minmatar need to be nerfed really hard in some area, because CCP obviously don't realize the impact of one race dictating engagement range at 100% efficiency, having the ability to deal damage outside of bonused scorch range or doing blaster-like DPS at short range.


The problem still is that a Tier2 BCs can hit pretty much everything above and below their class with decent damage at a good range and even outclass most T2 cruisers at a fraction of the price.

Either Tier 2 BCs need a nerf or every single ship around them needs a buff. The first option would be easier.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Alara IonStorm
#39 - 2012-05-09 23:18:24 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:

Either Tier 2 BCs need a nerf or every single ship around them needs a buff. The first option would be easier.

I agree with everything you said but I prefer the every single option personally.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#40 - 2012-05-09 23:19:05 UTC
I was suggesting larger plates as a way to make battleships pay an actual powergrid fitting cost for their tank. Of course, there should be an associated XLSE or something, but my idea isn't well-shaped enough to articulate it further.

The bottom line is that yeah, it's dumb that cruisers, BCs and BSs all share armor tanking mods, as cruisers get the shaft. Especially since there are some cruisers (Omen...) that cannot fit a real fit even with 800mm plates.

The speed of tier 2 BCs is a whole different issue, and needs to be nerfed hard to make cruisers have a real advantage. The way the Harbinger works right now looks fine for a baseline on how a BC should behave.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)