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New dev blog: Factional Warfare overhaul

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Kelidri
Omicron Persei 8
#61 - 2012-05-09 18:43:08 UTC
Question about datacores... So will players outside of factional warfare no longer be able to pursue R&D for datacores or will they just be competing with the factional warfare players to sell their datacores?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#62 - 2012-05-09 18:47:27 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:

  • The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
  • Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
  • Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
  • Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
  • Possible Amarr resurgence.

Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime.


That seems pretty pie in the sky deluded to me, especially given historic behavior when FW was first released. As long as there's a strong market for the rest of the Minmatar faction's stuff, the price of Firetails will not and cannot bottom out. Basically: the Minnie FW would have to literally supply every bit of LP related goods for the entire game for that to happen.

I still see no conflict driver.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Shar Tegral
#63 - 2012-05-09 18:49:32 UTC
Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.
Ahazu Sagam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-05-09 18:52:52 UTC
Will i still be able to dock in enemy high sec, like it is on SISI right now.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#65 - 2012-05-09 18:52:56 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
I think this rewards the guys fighting from zero the most - and who deserve it! On the other hand, moving from 80% to 100% of systems should give you the smallest reward since you are already steamrolling the opposition.


In my experience, the market *could* take care of a lot of this issue. We've already seen that the factions with the easiest level 4 missions had flooded the market with their LP store rewards, which were worth less than the other factional items.

As one faction stays dominant in a warzone and continues to accumulate LP, the prices for those items will go down and down on the market, devaluing the LP. The losing end, however, will have the more sought after LP store items, which while more expensive in the LP store could be worth even more by the time they reach the market.

The market will play a huge factor in FW activity from this point on, but in what fashion remains to be seen. Its just not something that's testable in a CCP office of on Singularity. Thankfully CCP has committed to tracking this and adjusting this as needed throughout the coming year and into the winter expansion, which will have even more FW goodies.


So the thing about that is that running L4s is not conflict driven. You don't have to generally worry about someone running missions for an opposing faction coming in to gank you or otherwise hinder your mission running. I don't think that's a legitimate comparison.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tressin Khiyne
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-05-09 18:54:26 UTC
Will there be a skill reimbursement for R&D skills? It seems that the weight of the change lends itself to giving players a chance to rethink their choice in training those skills.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2012-05-09 18:56:20 UTC
And when do you propose to actually balance FW and will you reset everything at that time as well?

Fun facts:
- Amarr has 20 (handful of deadends with nothing in them) systems vs. ~35 on Shakorite side.
- Amarr FW space is a big-ass donut, takes just a few minutes to reach any system. Shakorite side has numerous bottlenecks and it takes 15-20 minutes to reach the deepest systems (from Amarr space).
- Shakorites can cap ALL size plexes with a single frigate, Amarr needs gangs of increasing sizes (as intended) unless speed tanking *spit*.

Combined with the insanely farm-able LP for plexes you end up with a massive increase in plexing activity on the Shakorite side, I fully expect a complete Amarr collapse (ie. all systems under Shakors boot-heel) within 4-5 weeks simply due to the fact that it is utterly impossible to 'compete' without having 4-5 times the number of pilots to make up for the difference in ease-of-plexing.

PS: Thank you for introducing the PLEX system all those years ago, if I had paid you anything but my time since then I would probably do unspeakable things to my computer now out of hate/frustration for being a fool and being backstabbed.

'Nuff said. Have a ton of ships to move to border systems, so gotta run.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#68 - 2012-05-09 18:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:

  • The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
  • Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
  • Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
  • Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
  • Possible Amarr resurgence.

Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime.


That seems pretty pie in the sky deluded to me, especially given historic behavior when FW was first released. As long as there's a strong market for the rest of the Minmatar faction's stuff, the price of Firetails will not and cannot bottom out. Basically: the Minnie FW would have to literally supply every bit of LP related goods for the entire game for that to happen.

I still see no conflict driver.

-Liang



This. The key point here is that each militia LP store has a ton of generic items shared across many LP stores. When one faction gets a significant advantage, the ease of getting LP and the decreased prices will make even non-FW-exclusive items like hardwirings viable to get. When this happens, the price of FW-exclusive stuff will stop dropping, meaning there's a hard floor (and not a very low floor) to where faction-exclusive mods can get.

A winning faction's LP store will be easymode infinite ISK unless such a huge proportion of the EVE population joins that faction that LP value as a whole tanks.

At this point, the only viable items in the opposite faction's LP stores will be faction ships and other unique stuff...Which means fewer people are needed to drop the price...which means that in addition to it being harder to get LPs, the market for losing-faction LP goods will crash way, way faster. Until the losing side started to get back on equal ground with the winning side, their LP store would not support that many people...

But until they get that many people, they cannot get back on equal ground. It's a catch-22.
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-05-09 19:00:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I still see no conflict driver.

-Liang


I'm assuming they believe that for example Caldari ships getting more expensive will drive people that fly them to take part on the Caldari side to recitify that, it's an experiment maybe it will work and maybe it won't.

Well all said and done though the real driver ends up being wanting to fight for faction 'x' for ***** and giggles or being all roleplay about it same as any other part of the game.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#70 - 2012-05-09 19:00:10 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
- Shakorites can cap ALL size plexes with a single frigate, Amarr needs gangs of increasing sizes (as intended) unless speed tanking *spit*.

Exactly what frigate do you have in mind that can deal with neuts and tracking disruption? Only thing that comes to mind are bombers, and they do not deal well with frigate spawns at all.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#71 - 2012-05-09 19:00:15 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.


We´re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes.

If something doesn´t end up the way we like it, they´ll change it. Once it´s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they´ll move on and do more new FW features.

Winter is going to be pretty sweet.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-05-09 19:01:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:

  • The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
  • Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
  • Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
  • Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
  • Possible Amarr resurgence.

Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime.


That seems pretty pie in the sky deluded to me, especially given historic behavior when FW was first released. As long as there's a strong market for the rest of the Minmatar faction's stuff, the price of Firetails will not and cannot bottom out. Basically: the Minnie FW would have to literally supply every bit of LP related goods for the entire game for that to happen.

I still see no conflict driver.

-Liang


Also, The LP goods that require Tags will still be relatively expensive as Fw complex farming will be just as strong, Gyrostabs and tracking enhancers still work on other non fw ships, and the nullsec demand for those will always be strong. take a look at what happened with Imperial navy ENAM's, that mods utility for everything and their same base attributes as Fed navy enams dropped their price a bit, but they continued to sell well. while Fed navy enams got priced out of market because of lack of adequate tag supply (everyone bought other mods that needed the same tags for more profit)

another example of this, is at the same time Caldari FW was "winning" the prices of CN Invuls barely moved, because the demand for such mods was in so high.

While many mods are similar across several LP stores, each store has a few specific mods that will always sell relatively well because they are not shared. Firetails may drop in price, even bottom out , but the other modules that are not only LP based will become more common and maintain a good price.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#73 - 2012-05-09 19:02:04 UTC
Neat!

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-05-09 19:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
OMG, this Datacore stuff will become a chaos!!!! I'm running to Hi-sec to withdrown all my RP....
This will increase T2 prices in a long run....

I just hope CCP make something fast with the moon minerals, and the minning profession to fix this... All the prices in eve are rising up fast!!! this way... we will have a ship shortage soon.... and less pvp...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2012-05-09 19:04:03 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
- Shakorites can cap ALL size plexes with a single frigate, Amarr needs gangs of increasing sizes (as intended) unless speed tanking *spit*.

Exactly what frigate do you have in mind that can deal with neuts and tracking disruption? Only thing that comes to mind are bombers, and they do not deal well with frigate spawns at all.

For one (cheapest, so often used) AB Rifter can tracking-/speedtank all plexes .. have seen them tracking-/speedtank MINORS with full spawns for Goddess sake.

NPC/Faction balance are borked and SHOULD have been addressed ages ago and certainly well before any of this crap.
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-05-09 19:04:06 UTC
0.0 lite. I'm so glad we can have sov warfare in low sec now.

/s
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#77 - 2012-05-09 19:05:23 UTC
Congratulations.

You've made me give a ****.


Twisted

Where I am.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#78 - 2012-05-09 19:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP").
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#79 - 2012-05-09 19:06:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?

-Liang

you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#80 - 2012-05-09 19:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
The only good way to fix this and maintain a reason to fight would be to completely redo FW LP stores.

Each FW LP store should only carry unique items that you cannot get (cheaply) anywhere else. The store should consist of unique items, or uniquely-cheap items. This would solve the problem and if one side started getting creamed, their LP values would shoot through the roof.


Quote:
you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit.


If I could have fun and get a bunch of ISK, or have fun and get none, I'm going to choose the former. Choosing the winning militia isn't necessarily any less fun.