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Last Quartenly Economic Newsletter - questions
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Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#1 - 2012-05-09 13:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ban Bindy
I've read the dev blog about the ninth anniversary and its claim that the Eve universe is growing each year, new pilots, new content, all the PR hype crap. The picture painted is so rosy that I had some questions. No numbers are given there in terms of how many new pilots are coming into the game.

My experience for the last year and a half has been that the number of pilots logging into the universe is pretty stagnant, not much evidence of growth, and some indications that the numbers have shrunk. This could be my jaundiced view since I don't like the game very much any more. But the record for log ons in one day was over 60k, as I recall. I have not seen numbers like that recently, though it was comforting to see weekend numbers hit 50k+ pretty frequently.

Also questions about statistics I've seen posted by players who want to claim that the high sec population is not as large as it is sometimes said to be, and that more ships are killed in null sec than in high sec. So I went back to the last Quarterly Economic Newsletter to do some reading.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf

There is the link for the report. In this report, based on snapshots of the universe, there are indications that some of the current claims being thrown about are wrong. The report states very clearly that 85% of players in the snapshots were in high sec. This is overwhelming in terms of where players choose to keep the bulk of their pilots.

The report also goes into detail about what ships are killed by PVP, where they are killed, and by whom. According to one graph in the report, the majority of ships are killed in high sec. This disputes the notion that I have read on the part of a couple of posters that ships are killed 14:1 in null sec compared to high sec.

Further charts appear to indicate that the value of ships lost in null sec is higher than that of ships lost in null sec. This would likely stem from the fact that the ships being lost in null sec are more costly.

What the report does not make clear is whether the ships lost in high sec to Concord are counted in the total of ships lost to PVP.

Is Eve still growing in terms of subscriptions? If that is true, why are the numbers of pilots in the universe relatively the same? Or is this true?

Is there actually more PVP in high sec than is generally perceived? This would appear to be the case given the last QEN and its analysis of player combat.

One factor that makes me disbelieve the dev blogs assertion that the game is constantly growing is the fact that the Quarterly Economic Newsletter is no longer published. The QEN's did show clear growth of the game and offered a lot of other really good information.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2 - 2012-05-09 13:44:08 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
.


20 months late and a few ISK short of a buy here.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#3 - 2012-05-09 13:46:51 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
.


20 months late and a few ISK short of a buy here.


Who's trying to sell you anything? The trends have not changed that drastically in 20 months. And it's certainly not my fault that the QEN doesn't come out any more.

0/10 for your troll.
Didier Nardieu
Tux factory
#4 - 2012-05-09 14:01:34 UTC
We need a recent QEN because that was the best tool to know the eve population....... eve continue to grow ? i'm not sure more players try it but we dont knwo how much continue ! Its not because you localizate the game you have more player.
Lexmana
#5 - 2012-05-09 14:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-09 14:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
According to Dr. E's presentation at Fanfest 2012 (this year) link here, relevant part at 4:20 (lol!):
All Toons:
Hi-Sec = 71.5%
Low-Sec = 8.2%
Null-Sec = 15%
WH = 5.4%


Only those with > 5M Skill Points:

Hi-Sec = 65.3%
Low-Sec = 7.6%
Null = 20.7%
WH = 6.4%


Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players. These alts of players from different [security] bands *cannot* be considered to be "hi-sec" residents, because they don't belong to people who reside primarily in Hi-Sec space. For example, I currently live in hi-sec with all three of my toons. One is being trained up for sale (not hi-sec resident, but may become one), One is my missioning, hauling, exploration and raiding toon (low/null sec systems accessed through wormholes) {not a hi-sec'er} and my main, who is currently on break from WH's (definitely not a hi-sec'er).
Many Null-sec/low-sec denizens have Industrial/Invention/trading/hauling alts who *also* can't be considered "hi-sec'ers" - again, because the owners do not primarily reside in Hi-Sec.


This refutes the claim of people who claim "Hi-Sec makes up most of the population of Eve - There fore making changes to hi-sec we don't like is bad for the game because we'll leave..." Or other, related points. It *is* true that some might leave - but it is *NOT* clear that this would have a deleterious effect on the game or CCP.

So, while 65.3% of all toons with >5M skillpoints reside in Hi-Sec, it is absolutely not true that 65.3% of all toons are "Hi-Sec'ers" (just because *I* have 3 toons in Hi-sec atm, means it's (at the minimum) 65.3% - 3...)

Just wanted to give you some heads up there.

Edit to add: Of all those who answered CCP's surveys, 75% "Very Much, or Somewhat" liked to do PVP - 8:37 of the presentation.
Added: 10:25 - Mission Running Stats: "You like to pvp, but you earn your living running missions..."

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-05-09 16:48:24 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
.


20 months late and a few ISK short of a buy here.



0/10 for your troll.


Truth is not troll. You ARE the weakest link.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#8 - 2012-05-09 17:18:08 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players.


Indeterminate does not mean you can just fill in the blanks with whatever you prefer to believe. It's not a reasonable way to explain away these figures.

Aside from scamming, i'm not even sure why someone living in WH or 0.0 space would decide to play in hisec all the time on an alt instead. They certainly wouldn't do it for the isk.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-09 18:25:31 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players.


Indeterminate does not mean you can just fill in the blanks with whatever you prefer to believe. It's not a reasonable way to explain away these figures.

Aside from scamming, i'm not even sure why someone living in WH or 0.0 space would decide to play in hisec all the time on an alt instead. They certainly wouldn't do it for the isk.

I explained why I'm currently in Hi-sec.

There are many other reasons one (or more of a players toons) might be in hi-sec (jita trade alt, manufacturing/invention alt or hauler alt/scout alts). All of those are reasons why the number of actual, never leave hi-sec residents are less than 71.5% or the (<5m skill point) 65.3% for sure, because (for one thing) *my toons* are in hi-sec atm - so that equals N% -3.

Bye the way, I did not *fill in any blanks* with what I believe. Dr. E's numbers are out there to be seen by anyone.


Troll someone else.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Jessie42
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-05-09 18:51:27 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players.


Indeterminate does not mean you can just fill in the blanks with whatever you prefer to believe. It's not a reasonable way to explain away these figures.

Aside from scamming, i'm not even sure why someone living in WH or 0.0 space would decide to play in hisec all the time on an alt instead. They certainly wouldn't do it for the isk.


I have 3 characters that live in 0.0 and 3 in highsec in trading hubs.

Does this make me a highsec resident? Hahaha no.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#11 - 2012-05-09 19:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Ban Bindy wrote:
This could be my jaundiced view since I don't like the game very much any more.


yup thats probably all it is. I stopped reading here btw


Jessie42 wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players.


Indeterminate does not mean you can just fill in the blanks with whatever you prefer to believe. It's not a reasonable way to explain away these figures.

Aside from scamming, i'm not even sure why someone living in WH or 0.0 space would decide to play in hisec all the time on an alt instead. They certainly wouldn't do it for the isk.


I have 3 characters that live in 0.0 and 3 in highsec in trading hubs.

Does this make me a highsec resident? Hahaha no.


Goons have no call posting in any thread someone is talking about a REASONABLE anything

(thats really meant as a joke, not a troll. This whole "GEWNS killing EVE" thing is just getting funny)

Especially when miners arent willing to do what it would take to get change done: As we saw this summer; unsub.
But then again Im betting if that did happen and CCP decided to "do something" about suicide ganking, Goons and friends unsub, and get it undone lol

Guess there IS no fix

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Jessie42
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2012-05-09 19:22:25 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
This could be my jaundiced view since I don't like the game very much any more.


yup thats probably all it is. I stopped reading here btw


Jessie42 wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players.


Indeterminate does not mean you can just fill in the blanks with whatever you prefer to believe. It's not a reasonable way to explain away these figures.

Aside from scamming, i'm not even sure why someone living in WH or 0.0 space would decide to play in hisec all the time on an alt instead. They certainly wouldn't do it for the isk.


I have 3 characters that live in 0.0 and 3 in highsec in trading hubs.

Does this make me a highsec resident? Hahaha no.


Goons have no call posting in any thread someone is talking about a REASONABLE anything

(thats really meant as a joke, not a troll. This whole "GEWNS killing EVE" thing is just getting funny)

Especially when miners arent willing to do what it would take to get change done: As we saw this summer; unsub.
But then again Im betting if that did happen and CCP decided to "do something" about suicide ganking, Goons and friends unsub, and get it undone lol

Guess there IS no fix


CCP has already said that suicide ganking is a valid tactic, although a few feel that it's too "easy" which I can see from their point of view that with so many successful ganks it might look easy but it's more that nobody talks about all the ganks they flub, just the ones they succeed with.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#13 - 2012-05-10 10:47:03 UTC
Jessie42 wrote:


Does this make me a highsec resident? Hahaha no.



Denial is a really really sad thing to watch.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#14 - 2012-05-10 10:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

Guess there IS no fix



Don't worry. As much as CCP loves the Goon Media Engine Mechanics, they were awfully quick to hand out the Banhammer to The Wizard of Space when it came down to it.

Fear not. These idiots can not control themselves. They will go foo far, and rather soon methinks as they are feeling emboldened from Burn Jita and other activities.

Those who soar the highest always fall the hardest and furthest.

It will be a joy and a delight to watch.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#15 - 2012-05-10 10:56:39 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Is Eve still growing in terms of subscriptions? If that is true, why are the numbers of pilots in the universe relatively the same? Or is this true?
Yes, the subscription numbers are growing; no, the character population pattern is not the same — more and more people are leaving highsec; and as others have mentioned, no, there is no clear indication that any larger percentage of players are in highsec.


…and that's not even the last QEN you're referencing — there's one from Q4 2010 (which is still long outdated and superseded by various other sources).
Jessie42
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-05-10 15:38:10 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jessie42 wrote:


Does this make me a highsec resident? Hahaha no.



Denial is a really really sad thing to watch.


And in steps Krixtal Icefluxor with his contrarian and laughably wrong opinion.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#17 - 2012-05-10 16:39:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:


…and that's not even the last QEN you're referencing — there's one from Q4 2010 (which is still long outdated and superseded by various other sources).


The lack of publishing QEN's most disturbs me. Did CCP ever give a reason? I hate to suspect nefarius conspiracies due to my name but it does seem to be to cover up a lack of growth.
I have seen quite a few of Dr E's graphs contradict other numbers he's said & have tried to point these things out ( I suspect the contracitions are more due to overlapping residences in some cases ) but without a QEN I find myself trying to sift thru tweets which are about impossible to individually search for by CCP Diargora
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#18 - 2012-05-10 16:43:06 UTC
Jessie42 wrote:

I have 3 characters that live in 0.0 and 3 in highsec in trading hubs.

Does this make me a highsec resident? Hahaha no.


According to Dr E's stats it does make you 3 characters that are HI SEC residents (& 3 that are Null sec residents probably over 3 accounts becuase most account holders only use 2 of 3 alts )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-05-10 16:45:02 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
According to Dr. E's presentation at Fanfest 2012 (this year) link here, relevant part at 4:20 (lol!):
All Toons:
Hi-Sec = 71.5%
Low-Sec = 8.2%
Null-Sec = 15%
WH = 5.4%


Only those with > 5M Skill Points:

Hi-Sec = 65.3%
Low-Sec = 7.6%
Null = 20.7%
WH = 6.4%


Now, of those residing in Hi-Sec, there are an *INDETERMINATE* number of alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH players. These alts of players from different [security] bands *cannot* be considered to be "hi-sec" residents, because they don't belong to people who reside primarily in Hi-Sec space. For example, I currently live in hi-sec with all three of my toons. One is being trained up for sale (not hi-sec resident, but may become one), One is my missioning, hauling, exploration and raiding toon (low/null sec systems accessed through wormholes) {not a hi-sec'er} and my main, who is currently on break from WH's (definitely not a hi-sec'er).
Many Null-sec/low-sec denizens have Industrial/Invention/trading/hauling alts who *also* can't be considered "hi-sec'ers" - again, because the owners do not primarily reside in Hi-Sec.


This refutes the claim of people who claim "Hi-Sec makes up most of the population of Eve - There fore making changes to hi-sec we don't like is bad for the game because we'll leave..." Or other, related points. It *is* true that some might leave - but it is *NOT* clear that this would have a deleterious effect on the game or CCP.

So, while 65.3% of all toons with >5M skillpoints reside in Hi-Sec, it is absolutely not true that 65.3% of all toons are "Hi-Sec'ers" (just because *I* have 3 toons in Hi-sec atm, means it's (at the minimum) 65.3% - 3...)

Just wanted to give you some heads up there.

Edit to add: Of all those who answered CCP's surveys, 75% "Very Much, or Somewhat" liked to do PVP - 8:37 of the presentation.
Added: 10:25 - Mission Running Stats: "You like to pvp, but you earn your living running missions..."


I hadn't seen those numbers yet. Thanks for posting; good read!