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Interesting question of sanity
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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-05-09 16:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Lapine Davion wrote:
I'm sorry the mean PVPers PVPed you against your will in a game about non-consentual PVP.


I'm going to take this out of its intended context for a second. Where I think most people see sociopathic behaviour is in how and where and why this PvP happens.

What I mean is, if you are in 0.0, flying an expensive ship with valuable cargo, it is only sensible for someone to try and kill you and take your stuff. So when a gang jumps on top of you and blows you up, again this is not surprising, it is expected in a game such as this.

However, there's also nonsensical violence for absolutely no reason. Like a group of suicide gankers taking out a miner or indy ship. What do they gain from it, really? It's not a good fight, it's not really entertaining. Any value you get back from salvage/loot is questionable. The only certainty is that the miner/indy ship cost more than the destroyers you used to blow it up. In other words, it cost the other guy more than it cost you.

Similarly, there's a guy I see all the time who like to pop capsules coming through on autopilot in high sec. What does he benefit from it? Nothing. In fact, each kill is a net loss for him. But he does it anyway, apparently for the lols. This kind of mentality is what many find deeply disturbing. I know I do. Too many similarities with a guy that goes on a rampage and tries to get as many people down as he can before he is finally taken down himself. It's...just not healthy.

And while I completely recognize that in real life he's probably not chasing schoolchildren around with a chainsaw, the mere fact that in game he finds this kind of thing entertaining bothers me a little. Just like people who voluntarily watch movies like Salo, Human Centipede, Dark Seed, etc., for fun and enjoyment bother me. Don't tell me it's normal or healthy. They are not necessarily sociopaths or dangerous, but from the standpoint of mental health, you know they have a screw loose someplace.

I think that's a distinction you have to be aware of, in other peoples' perception of the events. PvP where the victim is good and ready for it, even if the battle is one-sided, I don't think many would complain about. Nobody would complain about a good fight there combatants were evenly matched. But when you see people shooting pods, at a net loss, for pleasure, during their free time on their entertainment dollar, you have to wonder what kind of person is on the other end of that character and wish you don't run into them. Like, ever.

Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

This game is BASED on destroying things.
Its FUELED by destruction. Killing people and things and the fact you CAN DIE, ANYWHERE at ANY TIME is one of the great things about this game. If you think that makes the people doing the destroying crazy, maybe you shouldnt be playing it. It sounds like it may be damaging to your psyche.


The above goes as a response to this argument of yours as well. It's not about sheer destruction. It's about who, where, how and why. It's all about context. Some people behave in such a way as to suggest they're a few cans short of a six-pack.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-05-09 16:26:15 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:


So are you also the type of person who believes that sandbox games like Grand Theft Auto turn people in murderous psychopaths?


No, I said sociopaths are in real life doing nasty things to other people and sociopaths play eve.

Any chance there are sociopathic carebears acting out their feelings of sympathy and affection?


Yep.

Quote:
The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[5]

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
1.Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
2.Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3.Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
4.Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5.Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6.Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
There may be persistent irritability as an associated feature.

The diagnosis includes what may be referred to as amoral, antisocial, asocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personality (disorder).

The criteria specifically rule out conduct disorders.[6] Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.[7]

It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.


I qualify for numbers 2, 3, 4 to an extent, and the guilt part of 5. By definition, that makes me a prime candidate for sociopathy. The most glaring obvious ones I see on Eve are numbers 1 and 6 (Hulkageddon, Burn Jita). You'd have to be Stevie Wonder blind and Jessica Simpson oblivious to argue that point.


Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I'm one of the people who believes people act in-game the way they really are or wish they were. Same goes for the Internet or anywhere else where you can be yourself with a high degree of anonymity and virtually zero consequences to your behaviour.

A d*** is a d***. Online or in real life, he's still a d***. The difference is, when at work and talking to his boss, a d*** will try to hide that he's a d***. Because there are obvious and immediate consequences to acting like a d*** in such a situation. But at home, or better yet on the internet, with relative anonymity and no consequences? You just buckle up and feel the Gs. That's an example of a person acting online the way they really are.

Now take the oh-so-common "Internet tough guy". Would they act this way in real life? For a vast majority of them, the answer is no. This is an example of person acting online the way they wish they were able to in real life. Reality is simple - mouthing off at the wrong person and/or at the wrong place and/or at the wrong time can have negative consequences on your health. Action and reaction. Choice and consequence. There are of course actual tough guys, but in real life even they remember the simple truth - no matter how big or scary you are, there's always someone bigger and scarier than you. Or just someone with more friends. But even the real tough guys are way more mouthy online.

Not surprisingly, the same holds in EVE. I mean, let's be honest for a second here. The game mechanics attract a certain type of personality - someone who likes a little edge to their games. As a consequence, EVE has more than a standard compliment of really disturbed people. It goes with the territory and it's nothing to be surprised about.

So I really don't know what the big deal is. This kind of stuff is not only common, it is expected.


This is a good point as well. I can't add to it at all, but I see it a lot in this game. Hell, I've known some scrawny fellows that couldn't harm a fly IRL play the role of tough as nails PvPers in this game. You know, internet convicts of sorts. It's really fascinating seeing it play out at times.
"If."
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#43 - 2012-05-09 16:29:31 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Malkavians are my second favourite race... I agree they are pretty awesome... But sometime I feel like ripping stuff to shreds and I love Gangrels for it.


Ill go for a Caitiff :) I played one who had Vicissutide, Potence, Celerity I think she was. I just remember the first one. I had FUN with that.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#44 - 2012-05-09 16:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Similarly, there's a guy I see all the time who like to pop capsules coming through on autopilot in high sec. What does he benefit from it? Nothing. In fact, each kill is a net loss for him. But he does it anyway, apparently for the lols. This kind of mentality is what many find deeply disturbing. I know I do. Too many similarities with a guy that goes on a rampage and tries to get as many people down as he can before he is finally taken down himself. It's...just not healthy.

I popped an APing pod once, and I'll probably roll an alt and do it some more because it's hilarious to cull the stupid. I can't wait for the new Crimewatch so I can repair sec status on alts even easier than now.

Do you fear for my child because I play a game?

E: Discussions like this on EVE-O Forums are generally p stupid.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#45 - 2012-05-09 16:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
I'm sorry the mean PVPers PVPed you against your will in a game about non-consentual PVP.


I'm going to take this out of its intended context for a second. Where I think most people see sociopathic behaviour is in how and where and why this PvP happens.

What I mean is, if you are in 0.0, flying an expensive ship with valuable cargo, it is only sensible for someone to try and kill you and take your stuff. So when a gang jumps on top of you and blows you up, again this is not surprising, it is expected in a game such as this.

However, there's also nonsensical violence for absolutely no reason. Like a group of suicide gankers taking out a miner or indy ship. What do they gain from it, really? It's not a good fight, it's not really entertaining. Any value you get back from salvage/loot is questionable. The only certainty is that the miner/indy ship cost more than the destroyers you used to blow it up. In other words, it cost the other guy more than it cost you.

Similarly, there's a guy I see all the time who like to pop capsules coming through on autopilot in high sec. What does he benefit from it? Nothing. In fact, each kill is a net loss for him. But he does it anyway, apparently for the lols. This kind of mentality is what many find deeply disturbing. I know I do. Too many similarities with a guy that goes on a rampage and tries to get as many people down as he can before he is finally taken down himself. It's...just not healthy.

And while I completely recognize that in real life he's probably not chasing schoolchildren around with a chainsaw, the mere fact that in game he finds this kind of thing entertaining bothers me a little. Just like people who voluntarily watch movies like Salo, Human Centipede, Dark Seed, etc., for fun and enjoyment bother me. Don't tell me it's normal or healthy. They are not necessarily sociopaths or dangerous, but from the standpoint of mental health, you know they have a screw loose someplace.

I think that's a distinction you have to be aware of, in other peoples' perception of the events. PvP where the victim is good and ready for it, even if the battle is one-sided, I don't think many would complain about. Nobody would complain about a good fight there combatants were evenly matched. But when you see people shooting pods, at a net loss, for pleasure, during their free time on their entertainment dollar, you have to wonder what kind of person is on the other end of that character and wish you don't run into them. Like, ever.

Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

This game is BASED on destroying things.
Its FUELED by destruction. Killing people and things and the fact you CAN DIE, ANYWHERE at ANY TIME is one of the great things about this game. If you think that makes the people doing the destroying crazy, maybe you shouldnt be playing it. It sounds like it may be damaging to your psyche.


The above goes as a response to this argument of yours as well. It's not about sheer destruction. It's about who, where, how and why. It's all about context. Some people behave in such a way as to suggest they're a few cans short of a six-pack.


This is the type of person that shouldnt have access to CCP IMO.
Theyd stop all those horrible activities right there to promote ppl not being able to do things like that in game and that would be BAD FOR EVE

Nephilius wrote:


I qualify for numbers 2, 3, 4 to an extent, and the guilt part of 5. By definition, that makes me a prime candidate for sociopathy. The most glaring obvious ones I see on Eve are numbers 1 and 6 (Hulkageddon, Burn Jita). You'd have to be Stevie Wonder blind and Jessica Simpson oblivious to argue that point.


This diagnosis has all the validity of the ppl that self diagnose Asperger's

They make those who actually HAVE it look bad by making ppl think its a nothing diagnosis

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#46 - 2012-05-09 16:39:45 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Similarly, there's a guy I see all the time who like to pop capsules coming through on autopilot in high sec. What does he benefit from it? Nothing. In fact, each kill is a net loss for him. But he does it anyway, apparently for the lols. This kind of mentality is what many find deeply disturbing. I know I do. Too many similarities with a guy that goes on a rampage and tries to get as many people down as he can before he is finally taken down himself. It's...just not healthy.

I popped an APing pod once, and I'll probably roll an alt and do it some more because it's hilarious to cull the stupid. I can't wait for the new Crimewatch so I can repair sec status on alts even easier than now.

Do you fear for my child because I play a game?



Exactly. I popped a guy that just lost his freighter to a ganker during burn jita, because I could. It was the first pod Ive ever killed in the game.
It didnt give me a sexual thrill, it was a bunch of pixels.

EVE makes sociopaths exactly as much as Doom did. Or D&D does. Or Friday the 13th (all scary movies for that matter) did. Or heavy metal does. Or whatever else outside, external reason you want to lay the blame for nutty ppl existing, instead of laying the blame at the feet of the person doing it. That **** has pissed me off for years

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#47 - 2012-05-09 16:42:01 UTC
I heard that if you post this thread 3 times Jack Thompson appears at midnight and gets you.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Rengerel en Distel
#48 - 2012-05-09 16:46:13 UTC
You'd think this thing would kind of blow over by now. Mitt is back, enjoying the game the way he wants to after a little break. He's playing the metagame he likes by declaring war on Issler's alliance. What took place out of game is being used as motivation for in game activities, is it that farfetched to think it might go the other way?

Either way, Mitt said himself he was out of line with what he did. I'd guess even he wishes people would stop talking about it, because nothing about the situation was good for him or the game in general.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#49 - 2012-05-09 16:51:10 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
You'd think this thing would kind of blow over by now. Mitt is back, enjoying the game the way he wants to after a little break. He's playing the metagame he likes by declaring war on Issler's alliance. What took place out of game is being used as motivation for in game activities, is it that farfetched to think it might go the other way?

Either way, Mitt said himself he was out of line with what he did. I'd guess even he wishes people would stop talking about it, because nothing about the situation was good for him or the game in general.

This sort of dipshit reasoning and conversation was going on long before The Mittani had his (extra) fifteen minutes so, if you don't want him to continue having additional fifteen minute blocks, you should just STFU about it.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#50 - 2012-05-09 16:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
You'd think this thing would kind of blow over by now. Mitt is back, enjoying the game the way he wants to after a little break. He's playing the metagame he likes by declaring war on Issler's alliance. What took place out of game is being used as motivation for in game activities, is it that farfetched to think it might go the other way?

Either way, Mitt said himself he was out of line with what he did. I'd guess even he wishes people would stop talking about it, because nothing about the situation was good for him or the game in general.


read it again... I wasnt talking about him at all

YOU are bringing that up, not me.

IM JUST talking about Issler and the insane ingame = IRL connection.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Elara Zetoya
#51 - 2012-05-09 16:59:00 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
EVE makes sociopaths exactly as much as Doom did. Or D&D does. Or Friday the 13th (all scary movies for that matter) did. Or heavy metal does. Or whatever else outside, external reason you want to lay the blame for nutty ppl existing, instead of laying the blame at the feet of the person doing it. That **** has pissed me off for years

Eve doesn't make sociopaths, no. No more than any other game. However, that fact doesn't change the perceptions of certain individuals. It's more the fundamental attribution error than anything else, really.

People love blame figures, and being podded by some guy in a Thrasher doesn't make you as much of a victim as being ruthlessly hunted down by some sociopathic lunatic in high sec space, even though both describe the same event.

When I'm good I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#52 - 2012-05-09 17:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Elara Zetoya wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
EVE makes sociopaths exactly as much as Doom did. Or D&D does. Or Friday the 13th (all scary movies for that matter) did. Or heavy metal does. Or whatever else outside, external reason you want to lay the blame for nutty ppl existing, instead of laying the blame at the feet of the person doing it. That **** has pissed me off for years

Eve doesn't make sociopaths, no. No more than any other game. However, that fact doesn't change the perceptions of certain individuals. It's more the fundamental attribution error than anything else, really.

People love blame figures, and being podded by some guy in a Thrasher doesn't make you as much of a victim as being ruthlessly hunted down by some sociopathic lunatic in high sec space, even though both describe the same event.


I think the ppl who think ingame ebil actions = out of game psychopathy are mistaking phychological diagnosis for assholish behavior. And theyre forgetting that they are not in fact, psychiatrists.
And (hopefully anyways) theres more to becoming one that being able to say "I have a little psych background"
Cause if you can, well hell I took a psych class in college, as Im an expert now, I say it doesnt reflect real life.

(now to note a few things. Firstly, I DID actually take said class, I failed it, but theres no way to even PROVE any of that so even saying that on the internet unless youre gonna scan your PHD diploma for proof - noone here could tell if it was fake which points more to the argument theres no way to prove it - so saying anything to that effect is stupid too lol)

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#53 - 2012-05-09 17:04:49 UTC
Elara Zetoya wrote:
People love blame figures, and being podded by some guy in a Thrasher doesn't make you as much of a victim as being ruthlessly hunted down by some sociopathic lunatic in high sec space, even though both describe the same event.

Indeed. It is far easier to demonize those you hate rather than attempt to come to grips with their reasons behind an action.

Wait, that's three...

JACK THOMPSON I SUMMON THEE!!!

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Elara Zetoya
#54 - 2012-05-09 17:08:33 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
I think the ppl who think ingame ebil actions = out of game psychopathy are mistaking phychological diagnosis for assholish behavior. And theyre forgetting that they are not in fact, psychiatrists.


I wholeheartedly agree. The differences between Eve and real life are legion, but one of them is that gameplay in Eve doesn't have real consequences (For the purposes of this discussion, at least). Police will not show up if you pod fifty people, your friends won't alienate you if you betray a corporation online.

In short, you can get away with things you can't always get away with in real life, so of course players will make full use of that. Not because they're evil, but because it's fun, or they're curious, etc.

When I'm good I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#55 - 2012-05-09 17:13:11 UTC
Elara Zetoya wrote:
your friends shouldnt alienate you if you betray a corporation online.


and if they do they obviously werent real friends anyways lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Elara Zetoya
#56 - 2012-05-09 17:15:15 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
and if they do they obviously werent real friends anyways lol

Yeah, I know, I know. Bad example. P

When I'm good I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better.
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
#57 - 2012-05-09 17:18:03 UTC
I think its funny that most of you are under the impression that the human race is a peaceful loving caring race. The Human race is anything but peaceful and caring. We have been creating new ways to kill each other since the first humans came to be. We are a blood hungry, greedy, selfish race and we will always be until the day we no longer exist or we realize that we are all humans reguardless of location on Earth.

People are more likely to be mean and nasty when they can hide behind the Internet. This does not mean they are evil mean people in RL but it does show you a persons true self. If you act mean and nasty while hiding behind the internet, then more then likely given the chance you would be the same in RL but since RL has real Consequences most do not have the balls to act like they really want.


So yes EVE is full of sociopaths but no more then any MMO game or any community in RL has.


Sure some humans try to be loving and caring and peaceful but in general the human race is NOT a peaceful race, not even close.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-05-09 17:22:49 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life...


Wow.

The only idea crazier than that would be that your "real life" personality isn't reflected at all in how you play the game.
Elara Zetoya
#59 - 2012-05-09 17:24:32 UTC
Twulf wrote:
Sure some humans try to be loving and caring and peaceful but in general the human race is NOT a peaceful race, not even close.

I never meant to imply that. But it's all shades of scarlet, isn't it? Sociopaths express certain attributes stronger than 'normal' individuals, and all.

Malphilos wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life...

Wow.

The only idea crazier than that would be that your "real life" personality isn't reflected at all in how you play the game.

It is, to an extent. Not to the extent many people believe, though.

When I'm good I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#60 - 2012-05-09 17:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Elara Zetoya wrote:
Twulf wrote:
Sure some humans try to be loving and caring and peaceful but in general the human race is NOT a peaceful race, not even close.

I never meant to imply that. But it's all shades of scarlet, isn't it? Sociopaths express certain attributes stronger than 'normal' individuals, and all.

Malphilos wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life...

Wow.

The only idea crazier than that would be that your "real life" personality isn't reflected at all in how you play the game.

It is, to an extent. Not to the extent many people believe, though.


Kinda like saying everyone who RPs a Malkavian in a WoD game IS ACTUALLY CRAZY

-.-

thats actually a good question, when WoD comes out are we gonna see these threads thre accusing ppl of RPing that clan of actually BEING crazy IRL?

Or is that argument stupid? Cause it seems relevant here

in case you dont know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malkavian

Quote:
As with all the vampire clans in the World of Darkness setting, Malkavians suffer from a specific flaw: in this case, they are incurably insane.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.