These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

If you really want to grief botters, afk'rs, industrialists and miners
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-05-09 12:51:15 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Freggan wrote:
Again not directly otherwise....god how obvious....all games would be called pvp games and not MMOG's. PVP is just a specific style of play not an all encompassing framework.

Apparently it is not so obvious. Mining is not PvP in all games. In Eve, it is.

Quote:

If you want to change the meaning and the commonly accepted idea behind PVP or MMO's or w/e I believe you need to talk to someone a bit further up the chain than us mere forum browsers.

We just need to agree that PvP means that players compete with players.


Then if we agree player vs player means what massively multiplayer online game means then some people are going to be confused. Whats wrong with accepting the current intentions in all games at least till now that PVP is warfare orientated and MMOG is a lot of players is the same universe all playing together.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#62 - 2012-05-09 12:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: malcovas Henderson
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

We just need to agree that PvP means that players compete with players.



I'll tell you what I class as PvP. Players competing with other players, to temperary destroy the others capability to compete.



o7
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-05-09 12:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Don't you see? EVERYTHING is PvP!

Yes.

Quote:
If you buy anything on the Market your ISK may or may not go to some rascal who uses it for PvP! Ergo, using the Market is PvP!

No. Whether you use the market to further your combat is irrelevant. It is by using the market that you are engaging in PvP.


Not according to the thread starter. Everything is PvP to him because people use your spent ISK on PvP antics, which was the point I was trying to ridicule.

I think there is a lot of confusion over the term PvP here: for me it means combat between two players.Whilst you compete against other players on the Market, and in the Asteroid belts, I would not count that as PvP. Unless you slug it out over some Veldspar.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-05-09 12:52:50 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Haas Tabris wrote:

If you really want to grief botters, afk'rs, industrialists and miners, it's really pretty simple. Nerf local. Make it so that a player doesn't show up in the local channel unless they type something. It's that easy.

Most of the botting programs are tied to a change in local chat (or at least that's how they worked a few years ago when someone offered to set one up for me). Nerf local and you could go kill most of the bots 'cause they wouldn't know to warp to a safe as soon as someone jumped in system.


For what I know, the client gets the list of the people in local even if it won't show them (i.e. in WH). That's enough for a injection + bot software to detect those who come in and react like they appeared in local.


I was going to say -- the bots will still auto-warp off if they detect a hostile target (see the Manifest 2 post, where someone did a study on how often this happened -- there are a *shitload* of botters in highsec mining belts) so this change won't really work.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-05-09 13:02:28 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:

I think there is a lot of confusion over the term PvP here: for me it means combat between two players.Whilst you compete against other players on the Market, and in the Asteroid belts, I would not count that as PvP. Unless you slug it out over some Veldspar.


Somehow, in their atrophied little minds, they have equated mugging with combat.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#66 - 2012-05-09 13:08:54 UTC
So they are the lazy sobs, but your whining because you want it made easier for you and have it basically handed to you on a plate?

Go figure....

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-05-09 13:09:53 UTC
If there was to be any further defining of the PVP era I would like to offer this as my refinement: PVP is combat between 2 people, CVP (cowards vs players) is combat initiated by a coward against a player not ready willing or able to defend him/herself.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-05-09 13:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulousli Obvious
THIS I like:

PvE
PvP
CvP (H'geddon excepted, as it is a competitive announced contest)

3 forms of ingame Combat in EVE.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Francisco Bizzaro
#69 - 2012-05-09 13:23:42 UTC
Freggan wrote:
Then if we agree player vs player means what massively multiplayer online game means then some people are going to be confused. Whats wrong with accepting the current intentions in all games at least till now that PVP is warfare orientated and MMOG is a lot of players is the same universe all playing together.

I don't see what the definition of MMO has to do with anything. Nor do I understand what "warfare oriented" means or what it has to do with the definition of PvP.

There is no essential difference between blowing up someone's ship or cornering the market on some mineral and raising its price through the roof. The only real consequence of either of those things is to make yourself some ISK or cost the other guy some ISK. In one case, there is a graphical representation of an explosion involved, and presumably that is the "warfare oriented" stuff you are talking about.

I'm not sure if there is a universally agreed definition which says PvP has to involve bashing someone with a sword or shooting them with a blaster, but please point me to the authoritative source if you have one.

For the purposes of Eve, though, I don't think restricting to combat is a useful definition, and it leads to a lot of confusion.

But the current topic seems to be just one of semantics, and I don't see that it matters whether gankers are engaged in PvP by your restrictive definition.

Tor Gungnir wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Don't you see? EVERYTHING is PvP!

Yes.

Quote:
If you buy anything on the Market your ISK may or may not go to some rascal who uses it for PvP! Ergo, using the Market is PvP!

No. Whether you use the market to further your combat is irrelevant. It is by using the market that you are engaging in PvP.


Not according to the thread starter. Everything is PvP to him because people use your spent ISK on PvP antics, which was the point I was trying to ridicule.

I see, I didn't catch that you were being sarcastic. Anyway, we're getting far away from the topic of the OP.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#70 - 2012-05-09 13:37:39 UTC
OP once again manages to prove that griefers are incapable of thinking past the "F1" key.

Sure, if you nerf local then the miners can't see you coming. On the other hand, how will you know that there is someone in the system? Not every belt is within d-scan range of the gate. After the first 50 empty systems you have to scan down just to get a hit on someone to see if they are there, you are going to want local back.
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#71 - 2012-05-09 13:38:11 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

Mining in Eve is PvP.


Collecting a resource that magically reappears at regular intervals is in no way, shape, or form, PVP.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Francisco Bizzaro
#72 - 2012-05-09 13:41:52 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

Mining in Eve is PvP.


Collecting a resource that magically reappears at regular intervals is in no way, shape, or form, PVP.

But it is. Because it is finite; and because other players want it; and because getting it faster makes you more ISK than the guy who is slower.
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#73 - 2012-05-09 13:46:04 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Because it is finite;


Not by any stretch of the imagination.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-05-09 13:47:41 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Haas Tabris wrote:

Oh, and if any of you so called "PVP'rs" who are just a bunch of whiney high-sec haters argue against this, well, you're just showing your true carebear colors. I'd LOVE to PVP without local. It's almost a wet dream of mine. And if you doubt me, well, this is my main and you can go check my record - I probably have more kills than you.


Ganking is not PvP. Nor is griefing. You're just a lowlife dickwad. Man-up and go find some real PvP to satisfy you. But I bet you don't dare.


It is called High Sec for a reason. Local stays.


I'm going to be called a traitor for this, but local needs to go. Local has no bearing on the security status of any system, that's essentially what CONCORD is for...hisec has CONCORD, losec and Nulsec does not. Having local is essentially a cheat sheet, not just for predators, but for prey as well. You should never, ever be able to see who is in system the moment you cross a gate. Having no local would be as much of a help as a hindrance anyways. A person could hide in system from war targets, either to escape them, or to wait in ambush for them. The door swings both ways when you remove local.

Oh, and I hang out in hisec, before any of you hisec whiners say anything about 'hisec should stay hisec'. Death to local, let's get some actual sand in the sandbox.
"If."
Francisco Bizzaro
#75 - 2012-05-09 13:50:41 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Because it is finite;


Not by any stretch of the imagination.

It is since there are a finite number of belts in the game, each containing a finite amount of ore.

Not all of them are depleted in a 24 hour period, so there is more available than is ever used. But that doesn't change finite to infinite.

In particular, the practical business of getting ore means there is competition for belts in systems which are favoured by the logistics. Competition is PvP.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-05-09 13:52:22 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Because it is finite;


Not by any stretch of the imagination.


It seems the limits of your imagination are exceedingly slight.

You should not project your limitations on to others.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-05-09 14:11:11 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
[
But it is. Because it is finite;



OMG, girlfriend. Just OMG.


Have you SEEN all the rocks in Low ??????

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-05-09 14:13:09 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

In particular, the practical business of getting ore means there is competition for belts in systems which are favoured by the logistics. Competition is PvP.



You do not mine.

You know not of which you speak.

The only thing even BEGUN to be fought over by miners is the Hemo/Hedberg/Jasp Sites in High sec grav sites.

The ONLY thing.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Francisco Bizzaro
#79 - 2012-05-09 15:50:21 UTC
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

In particular, the practical business of getting ore means there is competition for belts in systems which are favoured by the logistics. Competition is PvP.



You do not mine.

You know not of which you speak.

The only thing even BEGUN to be fought over by miners is the Hemo/Hedberg/Jasp Sites in High sec grav sites.

The ONLY thing.

Indeed, I do not often mine. So I'll have to take your word for it that belts in the neighbourhood of Jita are never depleted. I guess that Hemo/Hedberg/Jasp stuff is competition, so we do agree that there is some competition for minerals, even if it is at a small scale.

But regardless of whether you want to quibble about the meaning of the word finite (which I've used correctly, by the way), miners are advantaged by collecting minerals as efficiently as possible. If other miners are in the way, or other miners collect faster and are able to undercut your prices, then you are competing with them.

People don't seem to like my economic definition of PvP. But in the case of miners there actually is also a combat oriented aspect of PvP. A miner needs to worry about gankers. That means fitting a tank and flying defensively. Done right, a miner denies a ganker a target. In the best case, the miner sets himself up so cleverly that no shot is even fired - the ganker goes for an easier target. When someone is trying to take your stuff and you deny him, you are competing (PvP) and winning.

That's (another reason) why the miner can say that he is PvPing, and that's the reason why the ganker is PvPing, which I think is the comment that started this digression.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#80 - 2012-05-09 16:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Haas Tabris wrote:

If you really want to grief botters, afk'rs, industrialists and miners, it's really pretty simple. Nerf local. Make it so that a player doesn't show up in the local channel unless they type something. It's that easy.

Most of the botting programs are tied to a change in local chat (or at least that's how they worked a few years ago when someone offered to set one up for me). Nerf local and you could go kill most of the bots 'cause they wouldn't know to warp to a safe as soon as someone jumped in system.

Want to really mess with the afk miner? Or the half-afk ratter? Nerf local. Make them hit their scanner button every 2 seconds or post scouts on the gates or actually tank and stab their hulk or their ratting ship. Give the griefers REALLY good odds of catching these lazy sobs.

Want to kill a freighter or two each night? You guessed it... Nerf local. Park your gank fleet more than 14 AU off the travel line and go on a killing spree. Seriously.

Want to ambush jump freighters? Or cap ships in travel fittings? Drum roll please.... Nerf local. Your poor victims will have no way of knowing that you're cloaked up and watching their POS.

Put the fun back in EVE guys. Nerf local. Please. It's only about 9 years overdue FFS.

Oh, and if any of you so called "PVP'rs" who are just a bunch of whiney high-sec haters argue against this, well, you're just showing your true carebear colors. I'd LOVE to PVP without local. It's almost a wet dream of mine. And if you doubt me, well, this is my main and you can go check my record - I probably have more kills than you.


Dunno, Id imagine it wouldnt be impossible to program a bot to hit d-scan and react to ppl in that like they do in local?

Also; its not griefing. Griefing is something you get in trouble for/banned in MMOs. Has there ever been someone banned for in game griefing in THIS game?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.