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If you really want to grief botters, afk'rs, industrialists and miners
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Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-05-09 12:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mugged Yougot
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships.
What do you think the minerals are used for? Build Disneyland?

Malcanis wrote:
If you really want to grief botters, then convo ws26 and ask him how he did this.


Hahaha just kidding of course, AAA Citizens has a zero tolerance policy for botting, and those 5 Tengus and 2 Noctis all just happened to go AFK in the same place at the same time. It's a playstyle thing. Truly!
And your point is that I should govern and support what every single individual in AAA does? I would gank the **** out of the bots myself if I found him and he happened to not be in the same alliance as me. So what exactly was your point?
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-05-09 12:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships.

You are competing against other players for the finite resources and when you sell them on the market. Hence PvP.


Not the kind of PvP that the thread is about. That's like saying that corporations(actual live ones, not the EVE type) are in an all-out war against each other because they compete against each other on the open market.

Mugged Yougot wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships.
What do you think the minerals are used for? Build Disneyland?


Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-05-09 12:19:42 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships.

You are competing against other players for the finite resources and when you sell them on the market. Hence PvP.


MMO's have mining and competing against others for profits etc, PVP is players vrs players directly not indirectly.

Come on its bad enough pointing out the finer points of things let alone the blatantly obvious.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#44 - 2012-05-09 12:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: malcovas Henderson
Mugged Yougot wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
I PvP Hi, Lo, and Null. My balls are bigger than most of the Gankers. I actually attack ships that can Fight back. In areas that is riskier than Hi sec, and first and foremost, I'm a miner.
So why don't you use one of your PvP toons to hone your big balls and guard your 'sparring?



Why? Can you see a Mining boat loss on my KB? Your attempt at a retort falls flat. Even with this toon. A miner I must add. Has a far better Balls enhancement KB, than most gankers.

The majority of gankers are jumping onto the bandwagon, for easy kills. Gutless wanabe's. FOTM if you will.



vOv
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-05-09 12:21:37 UTC
Haas Tabris wrote:

If you really want to grief botters, afk'rs, industrialists and miners,...


I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to "grief" anybody.

Be sure to salvage.
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-09 12:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mugged Yougot
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict.
That is a bit far-fetched. Afaik, there is no 3rd World War at the moment. You take my argument and stretch it out beyond the implausible. If my tax-money are used to found various wars, I do not have any direct knowledge about it, and I certainly got no way to prevent it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you miners know that the ships you are supplying are used for PvP.
Francisco Bizzaro
#47 - 2012-05-09 12:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Freggan wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP. Unless you mine in order to roll down the passenger window of your ship, and chuck the nuggets of ore at opposing players' ships.

You are competing against other players for the finite resources and when you sell them on the market. Hence PvP.


MMO's have mining and competing against others for profits etc, PVP is players vrs players directly not indirectly.

Come on its bad enough pointing out the finer points of things let alone the blatantly obvious.

Mining in Eve is PvP. Mining in WoW is not. The difference is one of those finer points.

Anyhow, the only real consequences you can have in this game are economic. So as long as you are hindering someone else's ability to make ISK, you are engaged in PvP.

So to return to the original question: Ganking is PvP. (and mining is too, whether or not you agree with me.)
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-05-09 12:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Mugged Yougot wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict.
That is a bit far-fetched. Afaik, there is no 3rd World War at the moment. You take my argument and stretch it out beyond the implausible. If my tax-money are used to found various wars, I do not have any direct knowledge about it, and I certainly got no way to prevent it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you miners know that the ships you are supplying are used for PvP.



I'm merely applying your argument to a real-life situation. So who's argument is really far fetched here? The U.S is involved in armed conflict. As are many other countries with tax-paying citizens. It is a fair comparison.

And no, unless a miner is gathering materials especially for his Corp to field a fleet of PvP ships, he has no idea what his Dense Veldspar will be used to after he clicks the "Sell"-button.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-05-09 12:28:31 UTC
Mugged Yougot wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict.
That is a bit far-fetched. Afaik, there is no 3rd World War at the moment. You take my argument and stretch it out beyond the implausible. If my tax-money are used to found various wars, I do not have any direct knowledge about it, and I certainly got no way to prevent it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you miners know that the ships you are supplying are used for PvP.


*face palm* you have no context. Context is used to define a meaning. You started with being meaningless so your going to fail.
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-09 12:28:34 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Mugged Yougot wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
I PvP Hi, Lo, and Null. My balls are bigger than most of the Gankers. I actually attack ships that can Fight back. In areas that is riskier than Hi sec, and first and foremost, I'm a miner.
So why don't you use one of your PvP toons to hone your big balls and guard your 'sparring?



Why? Can you see a Mining boat loss on my KB? Your attempt at a retort falls flat. Even with this toon. A miner I must add. Has a far better Balls enhancement KB, than most gankers.

The majority of gankers are jumping onto the bandwagon, for easy kills. Gutless wanabe's. FOTM is you will.



vOv






Ok, I did not know. You are not a vagina from venus after all. Hooray! :D
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-05-09 12:29:29 UTC
Freggan wrote:
Mugged Yougot wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict.
That is a bit far-fetched. Afaik, there is no 3rd World War at the moment. You take my argument and stretch it out beyond the implausible. If my tax-money are used to found various wars, I do not have any direct knowledge about it, and I certainly got no way to prevent it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you miners know that the ships you are supplying are used for PvP.


*face palm* you have no context. Context is used to define a meaning. You started with being meaningless so your going to fail.
I do. It's just your stupid ass that can not see it.
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-05-09 12:32:12 UTC
Mugged Yougot wrote:
Freggan wrote:
Mugged Yougot wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Saying that it is technically PvP because the materials are used to build ships that may or may not be used in PvP is like saying going to work is technically going to war because the taxes off your salary goes to the state, which maintains the armed forces which may or may not be involved in armed conflict.
That is a bit far-fetched. Afaik, there is no 3rd World War at the moment. You take my argument and stretch it out beyond the implausible. If my tax-money are used to found various wars, I do not have any direct knowledge about it, and I certainly got no way to prevent it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you miners know that the ships you are supplying are used for PvP.


*face palm* you have no context. Context is used to define a meaning. You started with being meaningless so your going to fail.
I do. It's just your stupid ass that can not see it.


Thank you, I would take that to mean my ass isnt big enough to look forward.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#53 - 2012-05-09 12:35:33 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.



  • Warp to asteroid collection
  • Target asteroids that someone else is mining
  • Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
  • Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle


Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-05-09 12:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.



  • Warp to asteroid collection
  • Target asteroids that someone else is mining
  • Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
  • Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle


Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP.


That is either

a. Being an ass to another player. I'd call it griefing if you just follow him around and ruin his mining, not legitimate PvP.

b. Clearly a clever way of messing with a mining bot.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-05-09 12:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Freggan
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.



  • Warp to asteroid collection
  • Target asteroids that someone else is mining
  • Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
  • Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle


Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP.


Again not directly otherwise....god how obvious....all games would be called pvp games and not MMOG's. PVP is just a specific style of play not an all encompassing framework.

If you want to change the meaning and the commonly accepted idea behind PVP or MMO's or w/e I believe you need to talk to someone a bit further up the chain than us mere forum browsers.
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-05-09 12:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mugged Yougot
Freggan wrote:
Thank you, I would take that to mean my ass isnt big enough to look forward.
Nice way to derail the attention from your fail logic.

Bottom line is: If anything, make hi-sec less secure, and removing the General Chat listing might not be a bad idea. That was all. Bb!
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-05-09 12:40:17 UTC
Freggan wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.



  • Warp to asteroid collection
  • Target asteroids that someone else is mining
  • Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
  • Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle


Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP.


Again not directly otherwise....god how obvious....all games would be called pvp games and not MMOG's. PVP is just a specific style of play not an all encompassing framework.



Don't you see? EVERYTHING is PvP! If you buy anything on the Market your ISK may or may not go to some rascal who uses it for PvP! Ergo, using the Market is PvP!

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#58 - 2012-05-09 12:44:50 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
No, technically mining is not in any form or shape PvP.



  • Warp to asteroid collection
  • Target asteroids that someone else is mining
  • Abort cycles before completion, extracting ore before the other miner
  • Pop rocks before other miner completes a cycle


Is that not PvP? My actions have an adverse impact on the other player's in-game state. There is also the option of logging in immediately after downtime and clearing out all the belts. This is PvP, even if time shifted by up to 23 hours. This is PvP.



I understand where you go with this, but it is stretching the meaning to far. You could also argue, that just logging into an MMO game, you are entering PvP. You compete with limited server capacity. You compete for latency.... Bla bla bla. You have to draw the line somewhere.



o7
Francisco Bizzaro
#59 - 2012-05-09 12:46:03 UTC
Freggan wrote:
Again not directly otherwise....god how obvious....all games would be called pvp games and not MMOG's. PVP is just a specific style of play not an all encompassing framework.

Apparently it is not so obvious. Mining is not PvP in all games. In Eve, it is.

Quote:

If you want to change the meaning and the commonly accepted idea behind PVP or MMO's or w/e I believe you need to talk to someone a bit further up the chain than us mere forum browsers.

We just need to agree that PvP means that players compete with players.
Francisco Bizzaro
#60 - 2012-05-09 12:50:55 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Don't you see? EVERYTHING is PvP!

Yes.

Quote:
If you buy anything on the Market your ISK may or may not go to some rascal who uses it for PvP! Ergo, using the Market is PvP!

No. Whether you use the market to further your combat is irrelevant. It is by using the market that you are engaging in PvP.