These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Jump Drives, breaking Eve for years
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#121 - 2012-05-09 05:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lapine Davion
Okay, using a secret jump planning tool, I've measured out how many jumps it would take to get from the northernmost system, 3KNA-N in Branch, to the southernmost system, LX5K-W in Paragon Soul, using a Jump Drive Calibration 5 Carrier, which has the longest jump range of any jump capable ship.

It is 7 jumps.

Now, if we were to use a different ship, like a Titan, it is 17 jumps. That is the maximum. Both of these however, require a metric fuckton of fuel, will require cynos placed in potentially hostile systems, and everything.

So it would be a total of 17 cynos from one side of the other for a Jump Portaled subcap fleet, requiring more fuel than cargo space on all the ships involved.

Edit: Here is the route involved:
Titan - 5/4 Route: 3KNA-N -> BWI1-9 -> JTAU-5 -> Y-4CFK -> QPO-WI -> XD-TOV -> Passari -> Tunudan -> Decon -> Tararan -> Y9-MDG -> 2-TEGJ -> G-ME2K -> O5Y3-W -> ZG8Q-N -> C9N-CC -> 5AQ-5H -> LX5K-W
17 Jumps, Fuel: 70510 Round Trip: 141020

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-05-09 05:32:15 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Xython wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
No he wasn't. It takes less than 11 jumps to cross the entirety of Eve. Since this guy was in low-sec that cuts about 4 jumps off the longest amount.. In practice, I doubt his buddies were ever more than two jumps from reaching him. Because two jumps is a huge, huge distance.


Yes, assuming you have 11 cyno alts in place across... No wait, I don't even think it works then, because you'd have to move AROUND highsec.

Feel free to prove me wrong via a map of cyno destinations from point A to point B. Ideally the path should be circular, heading back to point A (we will then take the total number of jumps / 2 to calculate the distance "across" EVE). Oh, and it should have a drawing of a little sailboat on it.

I like sailboats.


You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest.

Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything.


No, he's right, you have to go around highsec. So it can't be 11 jumps from one end to the other.

Also, I see a defense you seem to use frequently. When someone actually brings out facts against your argument you just throw your hands up and accuse that person of not wanting to use facts, or not wanting to see your side of the argument, or some other similar thing.

But see, this kind of reasoning goes against what you yourself are saying against that person. In fact, you are projecting your own actions against this other person who is only trying to show you how you are mistaken.


No. I know his is a liar and will not apologize for being wrong.

Here you go, person:

http://www.eve-icsc.com/jumptools/jumpplanner.php?ship=Archon&jdc=5&jfc=5&jf=0&fromsystem=QYZM-W&waypoints0=C-PEWN&waypoints1=


You forgot the sailboat.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#123 - 2012-05-09 05:39:58 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Okay, using a secret jump planning tool, I've measured out how many jumps it would take to get from the northernmost system, 3KNA-N in Branch, to the southernmost system, LX5K-W in Paragon Soul, using a Jump Drive Calibration 5 Carrier, which has the longest jump range of any jump capable ship.

It is 7 jumps.

Now, if we were to use a different ship, like a Titan, it is 17 jumps. That is the maximum. Both of these however, require a metric fuckton of fuel, will require cynos placed in potentially hostile systems, and everything.

So it would be a total of 17 cynos from one side of the other for a Jump Portaled subcap fleet, requiring more fuel than cargo space on all the ships involved.

Edit: Here is the route involved:
Titan - 5/4 Route: 3KNA-N -> BWI1-9 -> JTAU-5 -> Y-4CFK -> QPO-WI -> XD-TOV -> Passari -> Tunudan -> Decon -> Tararan -> Y9-MDG -> 2-TEGJ -> G-ME2K -> O5Y3-W -> ZG8Q-N -> C9N-CC -> 5AQ-5H -> LX5K-W
17 Jumps, Fuel: 70510 Round Trip: 141020

Can't you just take fuel in an industrial and bridge it along with your fleet? And also, this example is for a combat fleet to cross the entire of Eve.

I think the issue with jump drives only really comes into it's own with jump freighters, carriers being used for personal logistics and hell I've even heard freighters are now just bridged around to move outposts. I wish I'd been around in the days when goods had to be moved with obsessive scouting, maybe even support fleets.

The only people you see moving stuff around Eve the old fashioned way nowadays are space poor idiots and newbies.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-05-09 05:49:40 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.

It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.


The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.

Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....


Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.



This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through.

Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#125 - 2012-05-09 05:54:09 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through.

Because "most" gates isn't all gates. Scout your way around them to get large, uncloakable assets through. Covert ops, and ships agile enough to use the MWD+cloak trick can just ignore the camps. As can certain other ships.

The only people who fly blindly into the camps and die are idiots who are unwilling/incapable of learning the game mechanics. Specialized ships, strategies and guides for avoiding/running camps have been around for years, if people don't use them it is their problem.

Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously.

Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#126 - 2012-05-09 06:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Saia Tae Arragosa
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through.

Because "most" gates isn't all gates. Scout your way around them to get large, uncloakable assets through. Covert ops, and ships agile enough to use the MWD+cloak trick can just ignore the camps. As can certain other ships.

The only people who fly blindly into the camps and die are idiots who are unwilling/incapable of learning the game mechanics. Specialized ships, strategies and guides for avoiding/running camps have been around for years, if people don't use them it is their problem.

Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously.

Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.



That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.

You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#127 - 2012-05-09 06:03:53 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.

Genius, why didn't CCP think of that.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#128 - 2012-05-09 06:05:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lapine Davion
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:

That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.

You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.


If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#129 - 2012-05-09 06:12:42 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:

That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.

You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.


If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine.


Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#130 - 2012-05-09 06:14:02 UTC
Agreed however there are many other changes that would have to go along with it to make it viable. For those who complain about the PITA it is to move large distances, well that;s kind of the point. Keeping people more localized is a better way to induce hostility and create conflicts. Lose the idea of being able to fly to the other side of Eve quickly and things might become clear on why localization can be good.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Geil Ding
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-05-09 06:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Geil Ding
The jump drive is a good idea, but not implementen as it should. The idea was for a cyno pilot to fly through all the systems and then lit a cyno. Basicly it takes the same ammount of travel time as any normal ship as everybody has to wait for the cyno alt to arive. But here is the thing, players are lazy, so people started training cyno alts and put them on strategic points to remove any traveltime. And thats what broke the jump drive, aka made it too easy.

There are also beacons at posses, but those are basicly gates for capitals and can be camped as normal gates. Yes it speeds up traveling but it does not allow safe travel, you still need a scout to check if the system is clear.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#132 - 2012-05-09 06:17:12 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:

That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.

You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.


If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine.


Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way.


I'm sorry that you have more trouble making friends than Goons do.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#133 - 2012-05-09 06:18:44 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:

That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.

You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.


If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine.


Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way.


I'm sorry that you have more trouble making friends than Goons do.


Huh?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#134 - 2012-05-09 06:19:07 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
This absolutely correct Ibelieve as to why more people are not in low and null sec. Most gates entering those areas are camped to high heaven. Why even bother trying to migrate to an area if the gate keeprs sit on the gate and just blow the crap out anyone that comes through.

Because "most" gates isn't all gates. Scout your way around them to get large, uncloakable assets through. Covert ops, and ships agile enough to use the MWD+cloak trick can just ignore the camps. As can certain other ships.

The only people who fly blindly into the camps and die are idiots who are unwilling/incapable of learning the game mechanics. Specialized ships, strategies and guides for avoiding/running camps have been around for years, if people don't use them it is their problem.

Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Remove gates and allow players to make jumps between systems without them with hundred of entry points and no one point is the exclusive point of entry. This would get more people into null and low sec. This would open the game up tremendously.

Yes and it would greatly reduce the risk, skill requirement and challenge of operating outside of high sec. In short your solution to get more people into low and null is to make it more like high.


Not for nothing but I read many time "get a scout alt to survive (rabble, rage, etc)" but to most people, any game where you have to double your subscription fee, or amount or work for plex, "just to survive" comes off as a scam. I find a way, but I'm the freak here. Most people just won't bother.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2012-05-09 06:22:38 UTC
I'm just speculating here, how about you can only jump into your own territory?

think about it.
JF will only be able to take good from high to nullsec, the trip back will be dangerous meaning logistics will exist, industry could also thrive in null

no lowsec hot drops as you can't jump in as before

if your territory is under attack you can more easily mobilize your capships with jump drives, but cannot attack an enemy system in the same way.
nubile slave
Advanced Weapon Supplement League
Fraternity.
#136 - 2012-05-09 06:53:59 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.

It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.


The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.

Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....


Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.




Are you serious? Who the heck would want to go to 0.0 without being able to jump stuff in....

Please get some actual knowledge of 0.0 before giving an opinion....
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#137 - 2012-05-09 06:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lapine Davion
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:

That's one of the problems with null and low sec. Everyone screams that you want more people to come there, but you really don't, otherwise you'd try to figure out a way to get more people involved in that area of space instead of shooting down any and all ideals that are brought up to do it. Maybe there are other solutions that can be worked out be building on ideals that people put forth instead of just automatically trying to discredit them.

You take about black ops ships - stealth and MWD. All good and well, not all players will skill up into black ops though. So there has to be alternatives to the system. There has to also be alternatives to skirt past gate campers. And yes gates are generally camped from the areas that lead from high sec into low sec. The reason why is because it is very easy to get kills.


If a corp or alliance wants into nullsec badly, then maybe that corp or allaince should try to make friends with an already established nullsec alliance, crash with them for a little while, and then try to take some space with the help of their new friends.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, it's hard to make friends when you are a whiny, unlikable asshat who doesn't want to do anything but mine.


Oh, I forgot, let's all play the game "your" way.


I'm sorry that you have more trouble making friends than Goons do.


Huh?


I suggested that to get into nullsec one could try to make friends with someone already there. You then decided to get all sarcastic and say something about playing the game "my" way.

Then I implied that Goons are better at making friends than you, which seems to be true.

If you or anyone else doesn't want to get around by making friends in this game, then be my guest, but it isn't going to go well for you or anyone else.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2012-05-09 07:03:09 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
I'm just speculating here, how about you can only jump into your own territory?

think about it.
JF will only be able to take good from high to nullsec, the trip back will be dangerous meaning logistics will exist, industry could also thrive in null

no lowsec hot drops as you can't jump in as before

if your territory is under attack you can more easily mobilize your capships with jump drives, but cannot attack an enemy system in the same way.


So now you want alliances that don't own sov to not be able to use capital ships at all?

No.
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-05-09 07:10:59 UTC
Changes I wouldn't mind seeing for capitals.

Jump drives having a spin up time so you can't undock/jump while immune and it gives you longer to intercept them when they're on the move.

No jumping from high sec, JF's should have to slowboat to a lowsec entry point then jump
Sendo Jarix
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-05-09 07:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sendo Jarix
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:


You don't care about facts. You can't be convinced of anything that is against your own interest.

Thus I am saved the time wasting of trying to convince you of anything.


It's you who is acting like this.