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Getting into Minmater T2 Frigs

Author
Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#1 - 2012-05-09 01:17:04 UTC
I'm looking forwards to getting into the Minmatar's Tech II Frigates. I tried out a poorly-fitted Rupture, but it was slow, clunky, and took a lot of capacitor to warp anywhere, making it really hard to get around in. I also didn't really have the skills to fly it, and I was fighting small, fast frigates, which wasn't its forte. But I much prefer the way frigates handle, and I'm pretty sure a Tech II Frigate will get me through anything I want to do in the future.

Currently, I'm using a typical Thrasher fit with a shield tank, a rocket launcher, and some 200mm Autocannons. I've got an afterburner and a gyrostabilizer on it as well, but I tend to put those on all of my ships.

So, I have a few questions.

1. What skills do I need to be able to fly a Tech II Minmatar Frigate well, and outfit it with Tech II guns and all that jazz?
2. Are Tech II Frigates useful as tacklers and for anti-tackler work in higher-level missions?
3. What is the highest-level mission that is soloable in a Tech II Frigate?
4. How should I fit a Tech II Frigate? Which one is the better buy for soloing missions?

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-05-09 02:51:01 UTC
Keep in mind that there are multiple T2 frigates, all with different roles.

For damage/tank, you'll want an Assault Frigate (AF). They put out some sizable DPS with good tank. They can be used in up to lvl 4 missions if you want to bad enough and I could see them being used as anti-tackle too I suppose.

For tackling, an Interceptor is what you would want, they're always welcome on any fleet roam.

As to the fit and skills you would need, it is entirely dependent on your intended use and the hull. That said, core/support skills are always good on any ship and T2 guns are well worth using on a T2 ship.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2012-05-09 03:01:20 UTC
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
1. What skills do I need to be able to fly a Tech II Minmatar Frigate well, and outfit it with Tech II guns and all that jazz?

I'm assuming you mean "what skills will I need to fly T2 Minmitar Frigates optimally"?

"Core skills" are the big answer.
What are these? Well... the biggest ones are:
- Engineering (+5% Powergrid for all ships)
- Electronics (+5% CPU for all ships)
- Weapon Upgrades (-5% CPU need for all weapons)
- Advanced Weapon Upgrades (-2% Powergrid need for all weapons)
- Hull Upgrades (+5% armor) NOTE: even if you are focusing on shield tanking you must learn this skill. Getting it to level 5 will give you access to the single most important module in the game... the Damage Control II... which will boost the resistances of shield, armor, and hull.
- Ships skills (ex. Minmitar Frigate, Assault Ships, Interceptors, etc).
- Jury Rigging and specific jury rigging skills (-10% drawbacks on whatever rig the specific skill affects)

After this you can play around with what is important to you:
- Gunnery support skills (ex. Rapid Firing, Motion Prediction, Trajectory Analysis, Surgical Strike, etc)
- Navigation skills (ex. Evasive Maneuvering, Navagation, etc.)
- Spaceship Command (+2% agility)
- Armor tanking skills (ex. Mechanic, Repair Systems, EM Armor Compensation, Thermic Armor Compensation, etc)
- Shield Tanking skills (ex. Shield Operation, Shield Management, Shield Upgrades,


Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
2. Are Tech II Frigates useful as tacklers and for anti-tackler work in higher-level missions?

Sadly, missions are fairly... specific and linear in terms of what you need. Basically you need DPS to perform well in them. If you have a friend, you can act as a "speed tanker" (grab all aggro and lead the NPCs around in circles while you stay at range moving fast) so that the DPS dealer can do the job unhindered.
Honestly though... any frigate can do this.

In PvP though... that's a completely different story.
- Interceptors, while generally frail, are some of the fastest ships around. They can "lock down" almost any enemy and laugh at them as they orbit at range (some interceptors have bonuses that extend warp disruptor range).
- Assault frigates are basically "mini-cruisers" and a small pack of them will give any experienced vet cause for concern. In the right hands they can take apart most ships battlecruiser class and below and/or run away before help arrives.
- Stealth Bombers are the bane of large ships everywhere. They use battleship sized missiles to deal sizable amounts of damage and can be equipped with an Area of Effect "bomb" in null-sec. Several well placed bombs can effectively end hundred man fleets. Did I mention they can use cloaking devices too?
Their pitfall? You can't fit a tank on them and they can't defend themselves against small ships (like Interceptors and Assault Frigates).
- Covert-ops are the ship to call in when you need a scout. They can cloak, probe, and use their agility to get past camps other ships can't. However, they have little direct offensive or defensive ability of any kind.
- Electronic Attack Frigates are... umm... uhhh... moving on... Oops

Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
3. What is the highest-level mission that is soloable in a Tech II Frigate?

Well... you can TANK level 4 missions by virtue of being small and fast... but you don't have the DPS to complete [most of] them.
I've heard of people using them for level 3s... but they mostly do it for giggles and not for "ISK-efficiency."


Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
4. How should I fit a Tech II Frigate? Which one is the better buy for soloing missions?

Depends on the ship. But honestly... if you are looking to do missions... I'd go with a Wolf and fit it for range and damage.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#4 - 2012-05-09 06:09:44 UTC
Don't over estimate what T2 frigs can do, if someone tells you he runs lvl 4 missions in a frig then just smile and back away. The fact that you can DO them in a frig is not important, the problem is that it lacks the dps to do them at a meaningful speed. EVE doesn't really have "bigger is better" but in PVE there certainly is a "more dps is better" and a Jaguar does LESS dps (and has less range) than a Thrasher so effectively you're going backwards. Also note that missions (not counting lvl 5s which you will probably never do) aren't really a team effort, they're easily soloable once you have a bit of SP and a decent ship.

T2 ships are specialised ships for specific roles and rushing into them from the start won't help you much unless you KNOW what that specialised role is and you intend to use it that way, doing level 4 missions for income is not one of those roles. Unless you really REALLY want to keep flying small ships (nothing wrong with that) and thus accept that your income won't be coming from missions I would suggest moving on in ship sizes. The more dps, range and tank you have, coupled with drone capabilities, the faster you'll do missions and thus the more isk per hour you make.
I'thari
#5 - 2012-05-09 06:15:53 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
3. What is the highest-level mission that is soloable in a Tech II Frigate?

Well... you can TANK level 4 missions by virtue of being small and fast... but you don't have the DPS to complete [most of] them.
I've heard of people using them for level 3s... but they mostly do it for giggles and not for "ISK-efficiency."

You can kill stuff, actualy... at least I didn't have problems when I was running some L4s in wolf (wasn't fast, ofc). Although, I doubt I'd be able to kill battleships with more than 1M bounty, at least without faction ammo, but after playing with orbit a little I was able to kill last EOM battleship (took some time, ofc) - that was before AF/t2 ammo buff too.

Disclaimer:

Every single character used in this post is a work of fiction. Any similarities with real-world alphabet, or - god forbid - language is purely unintnetional!

Babar Baboli
Random Exploration Inc.
#6 - 2012-05-09 09:14:38 UTC
Don't do missions in a T2 frig.
If you want them for PvE, do some high-sec exploration.
I've use a Jaguar for high-sec exploration and it worked great and was pretty fun too.
Although, you rarely find any good stuff in high-sec, but... random is random.


ninjaedit: competion about sites and plexes is not random in high-sec.
J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#7 - 2012-05-09 10:28:30 UTC
I'thari wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
3. What is the highest-level mission that is soloable in a Tech II Frigate?

Well... you can TANK level 4 missions by virtue of being small and fast... but you don't have the DPS to complete [most of] them.
I've heard of people using them for level 3s... but they mostly do it for giggles and not for "ISK-efficiency."

You can kill stuff, actualy... at least I didn't have problems when I was running some L4s in wolf (wasn't fast, ofc). Although, I doubt I'd be able to kill battleships with more than 1M bounty, at least without faction ammo, but after playing with orbit a little I was able to kill last EOM battleship (took some time, ofc) - that was before AF/t2 ammo buff too.



Indeed but like said, it's not an effective way to make money

In the time you do 1 mission a decent fitted BC can do multiple and with it earn more money.

T2 ships (not only frigates but all of them) are specialized ships, they excel in 1 thing each (doesn't mean they can't do other things, but they will be less effective in it).

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

And as nobody mentioned EAS:

They are good in PvP as if you have a couple of them they can really make the enemy fleet crap themself. Specially if you use the Caldari version (ECM) and your E-War is focused on their logi. A fleet with logi that are perma jammed isn't going to last long as the logi can't repair the ships.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#8 - 2012-05-09 11:01:53 UTC
Thank you all very much. You've been very helpful.

@mxzf: I think I'm going to go with an assault frigate for now. The added DPS is more of a bonus than proficiency at tackling, because I'm hardly ready to go out into the hard, dark world of PvP quite yet. Anyways, I end up soloing most missions.

@ShahFluffers: Wow, thanks for the write-up! I've trained a lot of the core skills already, but I need to get into the offshoots of gunnery, That was a great explanation of just about everything I wanted to know.

@JPoll: What does E-War do exactly though? Electronic warfare, ECM, logistics - all terms I'm really not that familiar with, unfortunatel

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/

J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#9 - 2012-05-09 11:30:55 UTC
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
Thank you all very much. You've been very helpful.

@mxzf: I think I'm going to go with an assault frigate for now. The added DPS is more of a bonus than proficiency at tackling, because I'm hardly ready to go out into the hard, dark world of PvP quite yet. Anyways, I end up soloing most missions.

@ShahFluffers: Wow, thanks for the write-up! I've trained a lot of the core skills already, but I need to get into the offshoots of gunnery, That was a great explanation of just about everything I wanted to know.

@JPoll: What does E-War do exactly though? Electronic warfare, ECM, logistics - all terms I'm really not that familiar with, unfortunatel


First to your response to mxzf. PvP can be done if you are just 2 weeks old. After 2 weeks you can fly a tackle ships in a PvP fleet (aka you keep the enemy on field while others shoot it). Point with that profession in PvP is however you will loose a couple of ships as you are small and easy prey.

As for E-war:a
E-war = Electronic warfare (aka every modules that doesn't kill the enemy directly) Examples are:

- Stasis Webifier = slows the enemy ship down so it's easier to shoot
- Warp Disruption = it prevents the enemy from warping away from the fight
- Warp Scrambling = As warp disruption + it disables Microwarpdrives (but has shorter range).
- ECM = Electric Counter Measures, aka jamming. It jams the targets sensors so it can't lock you and without lock there are only a handfull things that can harm you (Drones, bombs, smartbombs and FoF missiles)
- Tracking disruption = Makes your enemies guns turn slower, so you can outrun the more easily
- Sensor dampening = Makes your targets target range shorter / takes longer to target stuff.
- ... (sure I missed some)

Logistics (referred to as healer in other MMO's) - Ship that is build to repair others. It doesn't have any offensive capabilities but is build so it can repair others in the fleet.

So a fleet usually consists of DPS ships and a couple of logistics. The DPS ships don't rely on own repair modules, they buffer-tank (make them last long enough so the logistics can heal them) while the logistics heal them in case they get shot at.

There are 4 logistics ships in EVE (not counting the T1 cheap versions as they don't do it properly and not counting carriers as they are a totally different type of ship)

Amarr = Guardian, Armor logistics, only works properly in pairs
Gallente = Oneiros, Armor logistics, can work solo
Caldari = Basilisk, Shield logistics, only works properly in pairs
Minmatar = Scimitar, Shield logistics, can work solo

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#10 - 2012-05-09 14:14:48 UTC
Babar Baboli wrote:
Don't do missions in a T2 frig.
If you want them for PvE, do some high-sec exploration.
I've use a Jaguar for high-sec exploration and it worked great and was pretty fun too.
Although, you rarely find any good stuff in high-sec, but... random is random.


ninjaedit: competion about sites and plexes is not random in high-sec.


I agree with this, this is how I made my first couple billion ISK, exploring highsec in an Ishkur (Angel space) and Wolf (Sansha space). I know from personal experience that the Wolf can solo anything in Sansha space except the Vigil (and it has a crazy enough tank that it might be able to do that too, but I haven't tried it). AFs are very nice money makers if you use them for highsec exploration (not quite as good as a T3, but they're like 1/20th of the cost).

If you're curious, here's the fit I used for my Wolf:
[Wolf, Sansha Exploring]
Damage Control II
Centii C-Type Small Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Capacitor Power Relay II
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Codebreaker I

200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
Core Probe Launcher II, Sisters Core Scanner Probe I

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

13k EHP, 171 DPS capstable Sansh tank and dealing 165 DPS (190 with RF EMP) and moving around at 940 m/s.
The DED modules are fairly cheap on contracts (10-20M for the repper, 0.5-5M for the plating), or you can find them yourself like I did.

I'll also echo what J'Poll said, you don't need months of skilling up before you can jump into a PvP tackle frig, just a week or two of training. Waiting 'till longer doesn't seem to do much other than making people more hesitant about jumping into it.
Babar Baboli
Random Exploration Inc.
#11 - 2012-05-09 14:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Babar Baboli
mxzf wrote:
Babar Baboli wrote:
Don't do missions in a T2 frig.
If you want them for PvE, do some high-sec exploration.
I've use a Jaguar for high-sec exploration and it worked great and was pretty fun too.
Although, you rarely find any good stuff in high-sec, but... random is random.


ninjaedit: competion about sites and plexes is not random in high-sec.


I agree with this, this is how I made my first couple billion ISK, exploring highsec in an Ishkur (Angel space) and Wolf (Sansha space). I know from personal experience that the Wolf can solo anything in Sansha space except the Vigil (and it has a crazy enough tank that it might be able to do that too, but I haven't tried it). AFs are very nice money makers if you use them for highsec exploration (not quite as good as a T3, but they're like 1/20th of the cost).

If you're curious, here's the fit I used for my Wolf:
[Wolf, Sansha Exploring]
Damage Control II
Centii C-Type Small Armor Repairer
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Capacitor Power Relay II
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Codebreaker I

200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
Core Probe Launcher II, Sisters Core Scanner Probe I

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

13k EHP, 171 DPS capstable Sansh tank and dealing 165 DPS (190 with RF EMP) and moving around at 940 m/s.
The DED modules are fairly cheap on contracts (10-20M for the repper, 0.5-5M for the plating), or you can find them yourself like I did.

I'll also echo what J'Poll said, you don't need months of skilling up before you can jump into a PvP tackle frig, just a week or two of training. Waiting 'till longer doesn't seem to do much other than making people more hesitant about jumping into it.


Awesome fit for it's purpose.
Can't say i've made billions out of high-sec exploration, not even hundreds of millions. But, it is waay more fun and exciting than missions and that's what counts in the end.

EDIT: Of course you don't need that expensive fit. I did exploration in Gurista space with a T2-fitted Jaguar and it worked great, even though it wasn't optimal at all.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#12 - 2012-05-09 14:50:52 UTC
Yeah, that has been my experience, exploration is FAR more interesting to me than just grinding missions all day. And I agree that T2 fit works well too, but the repper was cheap (I found it myself and keeping it only cost me 10M or so) and the plates are so cheap that it's hard to give them away, lol.

I don't know that I could have managed the 4/10 without the DED tank though, since IIRC it was a little bit hairy before I got in a good orbit on the overseer (or I might have had to take an hour or two picking off all the ships one by one). The tank drops by 50 DPS when I switch to T2.

I don't use my Wolf as much any more, since I have a Loki that can blitz the good sites even faster, but I still take it out now and then for fun, lol.
Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#13 - 2012-05-09 15:03:12 UTC
Thanks very much again!

@J'Poll: I had no idea that E-War covered all of that. I thought it was ships that target painted for other ships or something like that. You learn a new thing every day! Random question: Do target painters work for all friendly ships in the area, or just for the ship it's mounted on?

@mxzf: Wow, thanks for the fit. I'm not sure how to use probe launchers though. I did the tutorial on them, but I never could figure out how to properly triangulate a site. Is there a video or something I should watch? Also, I was using four probes to try to do this, and I've heard you need five. Also, what does the Damage Control module do? Thanks.

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#14 - 2012-05-09 15:12:09 UTC
1. Yes, target painters will increase their sig for everyone firing on the target, not just yourself.

2. You don't need 5 probes, it's possible with 4, but more is better (I use 7 myself, in a 3D + shape, only because I can't find a symmetric place to fit in an 8th probe). As to how you probe, I've found it helps to remember that you're quadrangulating (like triangulating, but in 3D, so you need 4+ reference points (probes) to pinpoint a location). But 90% of probing is just practice; there's a little bit of theory to know and skills to have, but practice is the most important thing. I know there are some tutorial videos out there, but I'm not sure where they are since I never watched them.

3. The damage control is, in my opinion, the single best module in the game. It increases all four resists on your shield, armor, and hull and doesn't have stacking penalties with other resist items. That means that on any given ship it will increase the tank and help out (though shield ships have less benefit from it than armor). It is the one single module in the game that is never ever wrong to fit to a ship (sometimes it's a bit overtanking, or there can be better modules that could go there, but it's never a bad choice).
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#15 - 2012-05-09 17:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
8th probe isn't really to enhance the existing probe cluster but rather to be able to form 2 clusters of 4, you make one cluster of 16/32AU and in the same centre a cluster of 2AU. If you have good probing support skills it'll make life a lot easier, this is only really useful if you're looking for multiple targets or if you need to find targets FAST (assuming you have the time to launch 8 probes), the outer cluster picks up a target and without having to resize you simply move that whole cluster of 8 on top of that target and then the smaller size probes go to work.

It's really effective.
Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#16 - 2012-05-09 20:53:01 UTC
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
I tried out a poorly-fitted Rupture, but it was slow, clunky, and took a lot of capacitor to warp anywhere, making it really hard to get around in. I also didn't really have the skills to fly it, and I was fighting small, fast frigates, which wasn't its forte.


Others are already addressing your frigate questions, but I wanted to note that the Rupture does, in fact, kill frigates very well, when fit properly.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"

MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#17 - 2012-05-11 02:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: MadMuppet
Cameron Zero wrote:
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
I tried out a poorly-fitted Rupture, but it was slow, clunky, and took a lot of capacitor to warp anywhere, making it really hard to get around in. I also didn't really have the skills to fly it, and I was fighting small, fast frigates, which wasn't its forte.


Others are already addressing your frigate questions, but I wanted to note that the Rupture does, in fact, kill frigates very well, when fit properly.


If you are missioning, a shield tanker Rupture with ACs and an Afterburner can tear up a L2 mission no problem. The trick with the frigates when using a larger ship is to get range and run away from them (not orbit). Since they come more or less straight at you your guns can track and turn them in to confetti.

Here is an old basic starter fit for what I was talking about. This is actually an artillery fit ship, but the entry point on skills is low and the speed reduces the damage. You keep at range to pop the ships, and use drones and the missile launchers for anything that gets close. Once you support skills get up you can start swapping out for T2 modules (sorry older version of EFT so the names are slightly off).


[Rupture, cheap with rigs]
Tracking Enhancer I
Tracking Enhancer I
Gyrostabilizer I
Gyrostabilizer I
Gyrostabilizer I

Invulnerability Field I
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier I
Small Shield Booster I

650mm Artillery Cannon I, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon I, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon I, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon I, EMP M
Standard Missile Launcher I, Sabretooth Light Missile
Standard Missile Launcher I, Sabretooth Light Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Acolyte I x5
Acolyte I x1

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Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-05-11 09:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Ah. Minmatar frigates. I was in love with them too, once. The very first ship I wanted to fly was a Jaguar. But alas now I fly a Hurricane like everyone else(that doesn't fly a Drake)...

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.