Market Discussions

This is the kind of thinking that's going to result in Greece being ejected from the Eurozone and going further into a depression.

First of all; Private money is not going into Greece. Private money was already there. What is happening right now is that other Eurozone governments, most noteably Germany and France, as well as the IMF, are forcing those private investors to forgive parts of the debt Greece owes them, thereby reducing the % of Greece's GDP that their debt values at, in return for Greece's government implementing changes to their budget (Austerity measures) to prevent Greece from getting into an uncontrollable debt again. Should you be allowed to buy whatever you want with someone else's money and not ever change how you behave financially? No, people can't do that, we can only spend the money we have. Governments are no different. Once the money is gone, it's gone. And other governments are simply starting to hold Greece responsible for making sure it doesn't keep spending other people's money without having the ability to pay them back. At the start of the crisis, the percentage was, IIRC, something around 130%. That means the value of their debt is worth more than the total income of the nation annually. This is a situation no country should ever have gotten itself into, because there are only two options to get out of it; Default, followed by scarcity of funds and investors, resulting in a major depression, or get outside assistance, get a repression, but preserve the economy to a degree.

Greece is trying to go with the more sensible, latter option, but the populace is more concerned about preserving the comfortable lifestyle Greece's socialist-esque government has provided for the last few decades. But how did the government provide this? By pouring vast quantities of money into public sector jobs, institutes, and programs. But that money didn't come from taxes, but from outside investors, that Greece knew it wasn't going to be able to pay off. America is in a rather bitter fight right now over the same style of thinking. Democrats want to keep making new social programs (which is not bad, let me say that now), but are not thinking about the financial ramifications of it. Universal healthcare is good, don't get me wrong. But having government healthcare competing with private healthcare isn't good, nor is adding trillions (plural) of dollars to a debt that is already spiraling out of control. The money pool the government said would pay for it failed in the trial run, before even coming to implementation.

It's not private investors who destroyed Greece's economy. Private investors are what grows economies. Look at China. They have a huge investment sector and they own trillions of dollars of America's debt, along with other nations. Not to mention the thousands of businesses in the U.S. that Chinese and Japanese investors have either built, or contributed to.

It's irresponsible government - not private investors - that result in the collapse, repression, or depression, of an economy. Irresponsible government has resulted in more repressions than any natural catastrophe or failure of the private investment sector.

And before you go and call private investors the bane of the modern age again; Remember that they've existed for the last two mellinium. And more often than not, the quantity of investors is directly proportional to the growth, stability, and strength of the national economy where they reside.

ahhahaha this ****ing thread



*busts out the popcorn*

Meanwhile, the fed and ecb loan money to these private banks at 0%, I.e. print like crazy, invisibly, you get to pay for it all anyway.

Welcome to the scam.

That whole "Quantitive Easing" thing was fed to us in the UK media 2 years ago as a good thing, "getting money into circulation again" they said. When actually it's just putting more money into the system without any capital to back it up with, therefore devaluing the money its citizens are given.

what do you guys think about commodity linked currencies? like the gold standard?

There's a far far greater threat than inflation at the moment looming over the world. the central bankers are pretty much saying "screw inflation", because the problem is liquidity.
They'll deal with the inflation later, if at all needed, for now the U.S is stuck, like the rest of the world, in the liquidity trap no one thought really exists. well, it does, and japan is in it for quite a while now.(around 20 years iirc).

I'll be frank, No one knows what to do, The actual tools economists have to deal with depressions are all spent out.

Increase debt to get out of the depression - failed.
Increase money supply to lower intrest rate - failed.

Honestly, economicly wise, there's very little left to do, other than juggle heavy debts around and ride it out.
Things are too... brittle, right now in order to make any big changes.

As for commodity linked currencies - it won't work in an international market, that's why they stopped using it.
You might aswell link the currency value to the price index, but that's what they're doing already, maintaining a 1-3% inflation on average yearly. So, it's a good thing.

most posts in this thread are rubbish but that's an interesting idea and pretty much what Brazil did as part of the Plano Real.


you won't find any agreement on this claim

Nobody cares about the nominal debt, the target is always debt/GDP. There is always one faction that wants to reduce debt/government spending (which usually has the side effect of inducing a nasty recession/unemployment/reducing taxable income... that only makes things worse, see Latvia for a recent example) and another faction that wants to increase GDP (which often involves a lot of wishful thinking and postponing).

Terrible straw man.

waste reduction aka Austerity measures? Really?

You don't seem to know how some south-european countries work anyway.

Super-heavy corruption, vast moonlighting, vast off the book work, Babel self contrasting laws, politicians invading every smallest "power niche" (i.e. every hospital, televisions, newspapers, companies), disaster balances also due to past communist/socialist ideology influences and much much more.
State workers in there = rampant nepotism and one of the main politicians ways to grab votes. There are some regions where state workers are 40% of the total population... Plus, there's no job whatsoever so people are "parked" in statal jobs just to give them something to do and earn something, while the state gets more indebted to pay them.
Also, let's not forget some ancient mentalities. When I was younger I lived in places where people would openly call you an idiot for working. "Work is for peons, men command the peons and exercise power on them".

There'd be 1000 books to be made on these things and many of them can't be reduced to your 2 liner straw man.

You're not counting defense-related spending that comes from the discretionary budget. We end up spending far more than just the defense budget alone each year on that area. In recent years, even beyond the defense budget, the military has taken over a 50% share of the discretionary budget, so around $350bn a year on top of regular defense spending. Which means that we're spending over $1 trillion on defense-related costs each year.

By comparison, China, the next largest spender, spends between $100-200bn a year on defense.

Oh yeah, and that $1tn a year we've been dropping on defense doesn't take care of old people. And SS pays for itself. Medicare does not, but it also provides continuously constructive aid to elderly Americans, and would most certainly benefit from being expanded to the rest of the public, since oodles of healthy people would enter that risk pool, and the government would essentially be able to dictate prices. I'm not sure why the military never has to deal with the allegation that it doesn't pay for itself. I guess that's just one of those mysterious, American double standards.

Sorry for snapping. I know that you're for cutting defense. But the discretionary budget is an oft-overlooked part of how we spend money in America, and it conceals a rather large part of what constitutes our overall defense spending.

@all

would be nice to talk with some professional jita station trader.

what I read so far is just some funny comments but people don't know what they are talking about

thanks

not a jita trader
jita STATION trader
this is a big big difference

I haven't seen so much, except all the trading bots

just for interest if here are some who are doing this kind of job in jita
I'm one of these rare people.