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New Dev Blog: Time Dilation Video Demo

First post First post
Author
Swayzz
Perseid Meteor Shower
#121 - 2011-10-01 13:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Swayzz
Swayzz wrote:
ok you have said that there is a 2 sec pause to keep sync ...
so what happens when you jump 2-3 titans into a dialated system each with 100-200 ships ...
would this desync everything or pause the whole system till eveything is loaded ?


and why can't we add more servers? to eve ..is it the money or the hardware ?


well it could be titans and motherships ,dreads,carriers .. all with support ...
if theres a way round it it will be found and exploited ..?

so if the sever is already maxed out .. and more jump in then it would have no option either to crash or pause ?


can we not add 2 servers combined to a single system working like a raid drive ?
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2011-10-01 13:40:22 UTC
I was going to +1 on the first page, but for some... reason... my... browser... started... toooooo..... ssssssss....lllllll....ooooo...wwwww..... dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd.......

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Cybele Lanier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2011-10-01 14:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cybele Lanier
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
Will DestroyYou wrote:
Concerns:
2. Dilation for players is different to lag, HOW???


Lag = UNCONTROLLED degradation of the server, missed requests ie the enemy guns fire and yours don't, modules stick, free cap for active hardeners, you dying on a blackscreen and never loading grid.

TiDi = Everyone gets a FAIR SHARE of the server time. All requests are serviced - ie your guns fire at the same rate as everyone else, modules cycle slowly at the same rate as everyone else, no free cap for your active modules, slow loading into system but no dying on a black screen and waking in station.

I.e. its completely different.

No it doesnt "remove" lag but it does give us the best "fix" that you can expect.



Just quoting this for the benefit of people who aren't understanding what's on offer, because it makes my points better. This does accomplish something, by making lag predictable, moving it to "This is kinda slow, but at least I'm doing stuff." from "An hour of staring at a black screen, then ten minutes between shots at a ship that turned out to have died half an hour ago, and then losing because half the fleet got killed before they loaded grid."

"You don't need luck. You need theft things and run."

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#124 - 2011-10-01 14:20:55 UTC
Swayzz wrote:


can we not add 2 servers combined to a single system working like a raid drive ?


No, as has been explained several times over, the current codebase doesn't allow clustering or sharing server load of anything smaller than one system.

A design decision taken way back in the dark ages of EvE development. And not an easy one to correct without _massive_ amounts of rewrites, and most most likely a likewise massive amount of new wierd bugs ...

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Malcom Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2011-10-01 14:46:15 UTC
Playing devil's advocate here: what about bigger/better servers?

Although I was under the impression that the Eve servers are already pretty top-end. Is there any information out there that talks about Eve's servers?

.

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S0ns of Anarchy
#126 - 2011-10-01 15:19:52 UTC
CCP Veritas, doing his best to keep people subscribed and having fun. Could CCP clone him? They could use proteins from useless waste of biomass like CCP Zynfandel.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#127 - 2011-10-01 15:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Malcom Dax wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here: what about bigger/better servers?

Although I was under the impression that the Eve servers are already pretty top-end. Is there any information out there that talks about Eve's servers?


yahh there is tho digging it out would take a while, i know last fanfest they bought a top secret IBM super server to act as the dedicated server, that had a previously unreleased and unnamed new main board on it which was housing a previously unreleased and un-named new top of the range Intel CPU on it.

to my mind the only way CCP could do more hardware wise to their servers is to take a leaf out of that film 'Sunshine' and house the whole server farm in liquid coolant/liquid nitrogen. and thats a pretty mental and horrendously expensive thought! so right now its all about software optimisations!

i would say that CCP's code monkeys are seriously pushing python to its absolute limits. I know some critics say '**** it, write the damn thing in C' and thts kinda what theyre slowly doing. from what i remember CarbonIO and its underpinned python extensions are practically fooling python and sidestepping its main disadvantage!

it might be that in the future CCP can release itself from python, but it cant be something wished out of thin air, and it cant be something that they dedicate all their dev time to it, cause eve would suffer from being left in the shadows of other games in the marketplace.
Swayzz
Perseid Meteor Shower
#128 - 2011-10-01 15:42:16 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Swayzz wrote:


can we not add 2 servers combined to a single system working like a raid drive ?


No, as has been explained several times over, the current codebase doesn't allow clustering or sharing server load of anything smaller than one system.

A design decision taken way back in the dark ages of EvE development. And not an easy one to correct without _massive_ amounts of rewrites, and most most likely a likewise massive amount of new wierd bugs ...



then istead of running after console games market you would think that rewrite would be first on the list ..
or does the pc market now stagnant because of some of the larger issues like lag and such to be over looked for the more rich rewarding console market ?

but with a player base that could be double or tripled if these things could be done not even warent a look at ?
Akira Zendragon
EVE University
Ivy League
#129 - 2011-10-01 15:48:07 UTC
Veritas,

I'd just like to give some serious kudos for this. Being a developer, I find this is quite an elegant solution to the issue of graceful degradation. Bit of a stroke of genius, IMHO.

As to the "more hardware" approach, IIRC your current brick wall is 1 node = 1 system, right?
Have you considered the possibility of 1 node = 1 grid? Granted this is probably a pretty major, hairy, overhaul of server code, but as a long term project, perhaps?
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#130 - 2011-10-01 15:51:31 UTC
think of it as more like.. the rewards of the one could fuel and pay for the improvements of the other! =)

if CCP unlock themselves to a wider player base, that wider player base could very well generate them more cash that they can re-invest in eve's main servers and code development to make it run faster for more people.
Malcom Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2011-10-01 15:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcom Dax
Akira Zendragon wrote:
Veritas,

I'd just like to give some serious kudos for this. Being a developer, I find this is quite an elegant solution to the issue of graceful degradation. Bit of a stroke of genius, IMHO.

As to the "more hardware" approach, IIRC your current brick wall is 1 node = 1 system, right?
Have you considered the possibility of 1 node = 1 grid? Granted this is probably a pretty major, hairy, overhaul of server code, but as a long term project, perhaps?


How much difference would that realistically make? From what I understand in a major fleet fight most of those involved are on the same grid anyway. I don't really see you getting a particularly big improvement in performance by doing this. At least not enough to justify the effort that would go into doing it.

.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#132 - 2011-10-01 16:18:00 UTC
Even if you get down to one node is one grid, TiDi is still worth having.

For when that grid gets overloaded. As has been mentioned, build a better server and people will just bring more ships.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Tedric
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2011-10-01 16:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tedric
When i first heard of the idea of time dilation i loved it! It does not solve the underliying problems but it allows EVE to suffer more gracefully. I agree with most people here saying that the UI should not be slowed in its responsiveness, but everything ship based must be slowed.

If you allow the UI to be slowed in time with dilation the perception of 'This time dilation business does not work, it is still laggy' will happen and EVE will get negative PR. i.e. CCP writes code to spin wheels that do nothing.

Video: I like it.

Notes:

1. i would like to see the timer PULSE when the time dilation value CHANGES. mainly cos I want my attention drawn to it when its state changes, so i can adjust my perception of what is going on.

2. When someone is in a system next door and starts the 'jump in' process, I would like a notice saying that the system is under time dilation and an indication of how much. Not sure how I would like this done. It could be the gate looks/behaves differently or the UI jump button is coloured differently (follows the time dilation factor colour code). Personally, I would like to see this information before i commit myself to starting the 'jump in process'.

3. If a system is under heavy time dilation, would it be sensible to lightly dilate the systems surrounding it. This is to prevent the 'run around the block to the other gate' concept. It would also give an indication that 'big *&!* is going down next door' and also reduce the huge difference in time dilation values.

4. The new font: yes the 0O and 6G are clearer. I'm unsure if it is easier to read. It is certainly _harder_ to read when using the Black colour scheme.

+1 overall.

Tedric.

edit: typos.
Malcom Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2011-10-01 17:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcom Dax
Tedric wrote:
I would like to see this information before i commit myself to starting the 'jump in process'.


Hadn't thought of that. Now you bring it up, I agree.


Tedric wrote:
If a system is under heavy time dilation, would it be sensible to lightly dilate the systems surrounding it. This is to prevent the 'run around the block to the other gate' concept. It would also give an indication that 'big *&!* is going down next door' and also reduce the huge difference in time dilation values.


It was my understanding of that if TiDi is applied to the whole node and affects all the solar-systems on that node the same way. So this kind of happens anyway, in some situations.

I'm assuming that a node has a set of adjacent/near-by solar systems on it, rather than random ones. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case? Could get some interesting situations if not. What?

.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#135 - 2011-10-01 18:11:05 UTC
Malcom Dax wrote:

I'm assuming that a node has a set of adjacent/near-by solar systems on it, rather than random ones. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case? Could get some interesting situations if not. What?


yes this is the case, only 1 or 2 exceptions to this ie jita node and the dedi server used when a particular system is reinforced.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#136 - 2011-10-01 18:35:34 UTC
Praise be to our CCP Veritas overlord.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#137 - 2011-10-01 19:12:33 UTC
nice mass test veritas! im working on a video of it atm and will post it :) have to say tho on the pos bash part when you put TiDi to 50% i swear you can see on missiles the 2 second sync checksum looping! LOL!
I'thari
#138 - 2011-10-01 20:48:03 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Schmell wrote:
Ehm...why the user interface (camera, spitter etc) is slowing down in the first place? I thought time dilation is server side and should not affect strictly client-side things

Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one.

Couple or not - seeing stuff moving slower plus having an indicator is "feel" enough without adding artificial UI lag to the pile. "Normal" speed is there for a reason, you know - if possible you should keep it (or just make everything slower permamently and make it new norm), not make stuff running slower than it should and call it a "feature".

Disclaimer:

Every single character used in this post is a work of fiction. Any similarities with real-world alphabet, or - god forbid - language is purely unintnetional!

Aineko Macx
#139 - 2011-10-01 20:54:18 UTC
Excellent!

The one things that seems odd is that you plan on also reducing the client fps when time dilation kicks in. There is no good reason for that. Just the bad one that the graphics subsystem is probably incapable of running at a different simulation speed than the physics one...
Will DestroyYou
#140 - 2011-10-01 22:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Will DestroyYou
This will be a serious disadvantage to dictor (or any fast tackle ship really, bombers?) pilots.

The enemy FC has much more time to react now...