These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Skin tones - CCP, this is not how ethnicity works

First post
Author
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#41 - 2012-05-07 21:38:26 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Updating Sisi... but let me guess: no olive skins, no red skins, and Asian with chocolate skins. Twisted

Will be back briefly.



Color me blind, i couldn't see the skin colors option anywhere? Question
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#42 - 2012-05-07 21:50:37 UTC
You need a full recustomization flag on an existing character, or make a new one.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#43 - 2012-05-08 00:20:41 UTC
I like the new skin tones. Its the future. Whose to say that a person can't have artificially enhanced skin characteristics. I'm going to make a character that looks like Darth Maul from Star Wars Cool
Maul555
Xen Investments
#44 - 2012-05-08 05:06:06 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
can't have the old ones and the new ones? I'm curious as to the limitation stopping you from having both available, or is it a design choice?

just so we are clear, when I talk about skintypes and skin tones, this is what I mean:
skintype = new skin colors
skin tone = old skin colors

We feel the current color skin tone range is too narrow and having to pick one of 6 skin tones that are pretty much the doesn't make that much sense. We want to allow characters of all bloodlines to use the new skintypes we creates, and that range is pretty broad and the colors pretty evenly spread.
So if we wanted to have the old color also available, the options would be 20 for each bloodline, which is too much, and the color palette would just look weird with maybe 10 very white options(for Amarr), and then the rest.
Also, we want to move to use the new skintypes (behind the scenes they are totally different from the skin tones), but realize some people might not be happy to change colors so we are allowing people to keep their old skin tone until they actually apply a new skintype and save the character.



I like what I am hearing.... Is there going to be a blog about this stuff? This is the first I am learning of this new change.
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#45 - 2012-05-08 12:37:28 UTC
Can't say I'm particularly thrilled about the new skin types / tones however you want to put it.
There is a certain level of decendancy, while it is possible for someone to tan skin... the skin pigment itself between the races is entirely different.

Now I have no problem with extra Skin Types (base pigmentations) to cover the range we see in real-life, nor do I think that the current 6 Tones really justifies / covers a decent enough range. Still I would strongly argue here that it should not be possible to make a White Guy with Black Features or a Black Guy with White Features ... this is not out of any silly racist perspective, but simply that it is not possible in real-life.

Claim all you want about "This is the future, anything is possible" ... it isn't. There is only so much you can do with Genetic Manipulation, features such-as Facial Structure, Body Structure and even something is small as Eye Colour are actually all linked together very tightly; even what you'd think is a minor change to swap the eyes between Blue and Brown, results is a number of other aspects of the body changing as DNA is less a "Instruction Program" but more of a "Propegating Procedurally Generation based upon based Seeding"

Even using that argument, frankly if you go down the route like this... why not simply let people have bright base colour skins like Red, Green, Blue? The reason is simply because it would be ridiculous and stupid. For that same reason I would urge CCP to think far more carefully about how they're implimenting these changes.

I fully support the Bloodline blending, as well as the wider range available for skin tone - but this should not be at a cost mining a whole new uncanny valley. There should be a decision that either you're going to stick to providing the most realistic and impressive character system currently available, or why not simply thrown a Toon-Shader on everything because reality is defined by "This is the Future where everything is possible"

There have to be some lines that are clearly drawn, the Players themselves with always be split between those who enjoy the current Roleplaying aspect; and those who like to make it look like their avatars are doing certain sexual acts. Mind I would love it if real glasses were added and shades were removed, the sheer number of people who have Ray Charles looking avatar pictures makes me look like half of EVE is on a day trip from the "Special Needs" Centre.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2012-05-08 12:58:46 UTC
Logan LaMort wrote:
So racial blending is definitely being considered? I know it was previewed at fanfest but being able to do it doesn't necessarily equal that you will. I'm all for it and I imagined it working as simply you'd get access to the other racial clothing, tattoos and hairstyles/colours.

Faction clothing for LP is a pretty neat idea. Are you guys also still doing the clothing themes, such as cyberpunk, buisness, scientist etc?

Also whatever happened to the eye implant on sisi last year? The one which looked like this. It was really cool, looked like an electronic eyepatch for us pirate types Cool

Yes, racial blending is still being considered, but there is no timeline on it or anything.
The clothes are pretty much on hold now, so we are not really working on the clothing themes. There are actually a few new items(space suits) on Sisi right now, but I'm about to filter them out because they are not going out in Inferno and are just work in progress.

The eye implant still exists, it's just filtered out... I am not sure what's going to happen with it though.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2012-05-08 13:03:44 UTC
Commissar Kate wrote:
I do rather liked the way the skin tones were handled is this video with the blood line blending. The Amarr-Brutor blend looked superb both facial feature and skin tone wise.
I'm pretty sure the skincolor there is just picked... that is, the bloodlines are blended, and then they picked skin color that was in between the 2 bloodlines. So you could pick any color you want for the blended character.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2012-05-08 13:06:27 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Is the replacement of the skin tones with these 14 skin types a preparation for bloodline blending?
No, not really, but I guess it's good to have when/if we do the bloodline blending.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 - 2012-05-08 13:24:42 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:
Still I would strongly argue here that it should not be possible to make a White Guy with Black Features or a Black Guy with White Features ... this is not out of any silly racist perspective, but simply that it is not possible in real-life.

It is possible that we will restrict it a little bit (for example, Amarr might not have the darkest color, and Brutor not the lightest).
The world we live in is so diverse that I'm pretty sure you can find dark skinned people with "white" features, and light skinned people with "black" features.
I think the skintypes we have now work pretty well... my favorite test character, who is Civire, now has dark skin, and another favorite is a white Brutor. I think both look very good, and I'm pretty sure we see people similar to them all the time in real life Smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#50 - 2012-05-08 15:18:47 UTC
Thank you for your consistent replying, CCP karkur :)

I guess this is just the artistic direction that you have decided to take. Restricting it slightly would fix the immersion issues (outside of sci-fi skinmodding). Was the decision more to allow a greater avatar personalization (EVE is Real, your avatar is you etc.) over current fiction material? (again, outside of skinmodding)
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#51 - 2012-05-08 15:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
I don't mind giving people the power to choose a broader spectrum. I just want the nuance to stay there. Although 5 types of "white" might seem redundant, it's the kind of finesse that always makes EVE stand out when other designers in other games have always said "it's good enough" - CCP has made it a point that the finesse matters.


In terms of justifying skin colors, you can find albino "black" people. And there have been reports of very dark skinned children born to completely "white" racial parents. And vice versa.


I'm sure you can imagine the dad going... WTF Mom? Seriously? When that happens... Pirate


White child to black parents : http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/20/4715095-white-baby-born-to-black-parents?lite
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10697682
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3060907/Black-parents-give-birth-to-white-baby.html

Where I am.

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#52 - 2012-05-08 16:15:04 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lastly, a while back I found an awesome bug (it was regretably fixed) that lets you look like you have clear glasses. Is there any possibility we could get our hands on some of those? Lol
As of today, awesome bug has been turned into awesome feature... I doubt that it will go out in Inferno, and I don't know how it will enter the game, but the asset is in P

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#53 - 2012-05-08 17:28:56 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lastly, a while back I found an awesome bug (it was regretably fixed) that lets you look like you have clear glasses. Is there any possibility we could get our hands on some of those? Lol
As of today, awesome bug has been turned into awesome feature... I doubt that it will go out in Inferno, and I don't know how it will enter the game, but the asset is in P



<3 Karkur

While we are talking fashion, what is the story on those red heels we see in game, but aren't seeded?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#54 - 2012-05-08 19:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
CCP karkur wrote:
RavenTesio wrote:
Still I would strongly argue here that it should not be possible to make a White Guy with Black Features or a Black Guy with White Features ... this is not out of any silly racist perspective, but simply that it is not possible in real-life.

It is possible that we will restrict it a little bit (for example, Amarr might not have the darkest color, and Brutor not the lightest).
The world we live in is so diverse that I'm pretty sure you can find dark skinned people with "white" features, and light skinned people with "black" features.
I think the skintypes we have now work pretty well... my favorite test character, who is Civire, now has dark skin, and another favorite is a white Brutor. I think both look very good, and I'm pretty sure we see people similar to them all the time in real life Smile


Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP? Blink

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity. Roll


*6 racial skin tones x 3 races x 4 empires = 72
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
#55 - 2012-05-08 23:30:57 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Logan LaMort wrote:
So racial blending is definitely being considered? I know it was previewed at fanfest but being able to do it doesn't necessarily equal that you will. I'm all for it and I imagined it working as simply you'd get access to the other racial clothing, tattoos and hairstyles/colours.

Faction clothing for LP is a pretty neat idea. Are you guys also still doing the clothing themes, such as cyberpunk, buisness, scientist etc?

Also whatever happened to the eye implant on sisi last year? The one which looked like this. It was really cool, looked like an electronic eyepatch for us pirate types Cool

Yes, racial blending is still being considered, but there is no timeline on it or anything.
The clothes are pretty much on hold now, so we are not really working on the clothing themes. There are actually a few new items(space suits) on Sisi right now, but I'm about to filter them out because they are not going out in Inferno and are just work in progress.

The eye implant still exists, it's just filtered out... I am not sure what's going to happen with it though.


Thanks for the replies Smile

Out of all the Incarna type stuff, avatar customisation is probably the most useful thing to have right now since portraits are the most recognisable and defining feature of our characters.

I definitely hope to see that eye implant though, it was just too cool Pirate
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#56 - 2012-05-08 23:33:06 UTC
My name is Bloodpetal and I endorse this message.

AttentionAttentionAttention

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP? Blink

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity. Roll


*6 racial skin tones x 3 races x 4 empires = 72

Where I am.

Valida Malinen
Sehnsucht Solutions
#57 - 2012-05-09 06:06:05 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
[Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP? Blink

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity. Roll


*6 racial skin tones x 3 races x 4 empires = 72


As one of those seemingly non-existent olive people, I endorse this message.
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#58 - 2012-05-09 12:18:10 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
RavenTesio wrote:
Still I would strongly argue here that it should not be possible to make a White Guy with Black Features or a Black Guy with White Features ... this is not out of any silly racist perspective, but simply that it is not possible in real-life.

It is possible that we will restrict it a little bit (for example, Amarr might not have the darkest color, and Brutor not the lightest).
The world we live in is so diverse that I'm pretty sure you can find dark skinned people with "white" features, and light skinned people with "black" features.
I think the skintypes we have now work pretty well... my favorite test character, who is Civire, now has dark skin, and another favorite is a white Brutor. I think both look very good, and I'm pretty sure we see people similar to them all the time in real life Smile


While I will agree that skin tones are diverse, it is the types that dictate how they will be.
Adding artificial limitations on how White / Black someone can be, would still produce edge-cases that don't look right and fall hard and deep into the Uncanny Valley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinos

Those are some good reads, if you guys haven't check them out already.
I have had a chance to study the Shader system employed for the Character system, which unfortunately doesn't really have the capability (due to how things are calculated) to achieve something that isn't pre-made. This said I would highly recommend that this changed as really the base skin-colour is generally down to the Sub-Surface Scatter, Reflection and Specular; the blend of these contribute to the final colour.

If you do simply stick with the current system though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Felix_von_Luschan_Skin_Color_Chart.JPG

That is probably the most important chart, those are base adjusted skin colours. What you want (generally speaking) is to make a Hue Palette with a larger range than that; but use it as the extremes... then Clamp to +/- 25% of the base value. This would prevent any weirdness.

I mean that is basically the least complicated solution that shouldn't take long to impliment as it would literally be a colour blend with a greyscale skin diffuse. Still I'd suggest looking in to creating the 6 Architypes (which really at 2, Cold and Warm climate variants for 3 base types) as this would provide a much larger range of diversity that wouldn't lead to edge-case weirdness.

Not to mention it would be easier to have the skin blend for colder, warmer evironments or being burnt. Should you want to expand on Incarna gameplay at a later date without having to make a work around for such things.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#59 - 2012-05-09 15:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP? Blink

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity. Roll

When those colors were made, the artists made sure they covered the old default colors. The 9th color in the color wheel is olive.
The new colors do cover a wide range of skin colors (not just white and black), and I really hope everyone can find a color they like.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2012-05-09 16:20:19 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

The new colors do cover a wide range of skin colors (not just white and black), and I really hope everyone can find a color they like.


And even if they don't, they can keep their old one that they liked! Big smile

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath