These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Do you group your weapons or not?

First post
Author
Lexmana
#41 - 2012-05-08 15:59:56 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Joran Dravius wrote:
Doctor Caprician wrote:
So is there, or is there not, a loss to DPS when using grouped weapons?

Do you not speak English? He said there isn't. I wish people would stop spreading that ridiculous rumor.

Well, there is loss in DPS when killing multiple targets.



How do you kill multiple targets with grouped weapons?

One after the other?

If you don't believe me try it yourself. Pick an arty Tornado and kill a few frigs and see which one that does it faster: grouped or ungrouped.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#42 - 2012-05-08 16:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Joran Dravius wrote:
Doctor Caprician wrote:
So is there, or is there not, a loss to DPS when using grouped weapons?

Do you not speak English? He said there isn't. I wish people would stop spreading that ridiculous rumor.

Well, there is loss in DPS when killing multiple targets.



How do you kill multiple targets with grouped weapons?

One after the other?

If you don't believe me try it yourself. Pick an arty Tornado and kill a few frigs and see which one that does it faster: grouped or ungrouped.



That is killing a single target with grouped weapons multiple times.

Edit - ps. I don't waste ammo on frigs, I let drones take care of them.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Lexmana
#43 - 2012-05-08 16:16:45 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
That is killing a single target with grouped weapons multiple times.

Are you kidding me? That would take much longer waiting for him to reship and come back. Killing multiple targets is faster.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#44 - 2012-05-08 16:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
That is killing a single target with grouped weapons multiple times.

Are you kidding me? That would take much longer waiting for him to reship and come back. Killing multiple targets is faster.



Waiting for who to reship? What are you talking about?

Spreading out your damage is inefficient and this has been pointed out already. If you are shooting at 2 ships at one time, you are halving your damage while the rate of recharge remains the same, thus taking much longer to kill either ship. If you focus on one ship you are going to give him far fewer cycles on his recharge rate, thus killing him faster.

Why do you think calling primaries is so effective?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Lexmana
#45 - 2012-05-08 16:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Micheal Dietrich wrote:

Spreading out your damage is inefficient and this has been pointed out already.
/../
Why do you think calling primaries is so effective?

Who said you can't focus fire with ungrouped weapons?

I don't think you understand how this works tbh. Ungrouped weapons just let you pick a new target for the guns that didn't have to shoot when the target dies, thus less overflow volley damage = more DPS.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#46 - 2012-05-08 16:32:50 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
That is killing a single target with grouped weapons multiple times.

Are you kidding me? That would take much longer waiting for him to reship and come back. Killing multiple targets is faster.



Waiting for who to reship? What are you talking about?

Spreading out your damage is inefficient and this has been pointed out already. If you are shooting at 2 ships at one time, you are halving your damage while the rate of recharge remains the same, thus taking much longer to kill either ship. If you focus on one ship you are going to give him far fewer cycles on his recharge rate, thus killing him faster.

Why do you think calling primaries is so effective?

Who said you can't focus fire with ungrouped weapons?

I don't think you understand how this works tbh. Ungrouped weapons just let you pick a new target for the guns that didn't have to shoot when the target dies, thus less overflow volley damage.


I don't know, who said you can't focus fire with ungrouped weapons. I know I didn't. All I wanted to know was how it was possible to hit multiple targets with grouped weapons as you only have the one button.

All I see you talking about is not wasting a few rounds between targets. The rest of us are talking about the rest of the time you are shooting.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-05-08 16:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
That is killing a single target with grouped weapons multiple times.

Are you kidding me? That would take much longer waiting for him to reship and come back. Killing multiple targets is faster.



Waiting for who to reship? What are you talking about?

Spreading out your damage is inefficient and this has been pointed out already. If you are shooting at 2 ships at one time, you are halving your damage while the rate of recharge remains the same, thus taking much longer to kill either ship. If you focus on one ship you are going to give him far fewer cycles on his recharge rate, thus killing him faster.

Why do you think calling primaries is so effective?

why do you think large alpha fleets split guns and call several primaries at a time?

once you get to the point where you can alpha your target (more likely than you think) any additional gun is only wasted damage/overkill - much better to split your guns into several groups and kill more than one target per cycle...

.

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#48 - 2012-05-08 16:39:56 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
That is killing a single target with grouped weapons multiple times.

Are you kidding me? That would take much longer waiting for him to reship and come back. Killing multiple targets is faster.



Waiting for who to reship? What are you talking about?

Spreading out your damage is inefficient and this has been pointed out already. If you are shooting at 2 ships at one time, you are halving your damage while the rate of recharge remains the same, thus taking much longer to kill either ship. If you focus on one ship you are going to give him far fewer cycles on his recharge rate, thus killing him faster.

Why do you think calling primaries is so effective?

why do you think large alpha fleets split guns and call several primaries at a time?

once you get to the point where you can alpha your target (more likely than you think) any additional gun is only wasted damage/overkill - much better to split your guns into several groups and kill more than one target per cycle...



That I can understand. If you have 10 ships with 8 guns each you are still talking about 40 guns on one target. My argument is based more on small scale, like finding yourself in a 1v2 with 2 drakes. I can see how in fleet battles multitasking targets can be more effective.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#49 - 2012-05-08 16:41:04 UTC
Oh oh me! I do! I do!

WTF?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-08 17:06:37 UTC
One more aspect to multiple gun groups: you have more options with overheating. Say you have two gun groups, A and B, and you put them in your high slots like this:

A B A B A B

You can now overheat one group at a time, using the other group as heat sinks (or at least as non-contributors of heat), and potentially get more overheat time over the course of a fight than if you overheated them all simultaneously.


Regarding questions about what happens when one gun burns out and the rest of your group won't fire: during the battle, just click "ungroup" and then you can individually fire the remaining guns.
Lexmana
#51 - 2012-05-08 17:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
All I see you talking about is not wasting a few rounds between targets. The rest of us are talking about the rest of the time you are shooting.

A few rounds you say. Let me give you two examples.

1) if you will always alpha your target with one gun and have eight installed on your ship you can increase DPS to 800% with ungrouped guns.

Edit: It is actually even more that that. Seen this post for better calculations.

2) if it takes five volleys in average to kill your target with grouped guns you will waste in average a half volley ever 5 shots. Splitting your guns in two lets you apply that DPS on another target. That is a theoretical 10% increase in DPS. Actual increase will depend on how fast you can shoot your next target so a little bit less.

How much would you pay for an implant that gives you +10% DPS?

Edit: The above calculations are very simplified and wrong. But a tachyon boat will see +9% DPS when killing targets in three volleys.
Grouped weapons and DPS: Theory, mechanics and math, some examples and fun facts.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#52 - 2012-05-08 17:37:08 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
All I see you talking about is not wasting a few rounds between targets. The rest of us are talking about the rest of the time you are shooting.

A few rounds you say. Let me give you two examples.

1) if you will always alpha your target with one gun and have eight installed on your ship you can increase DPS 800% with ungrouped guns.

2) if it takes five volleys in average to kill your target with grouped guns you will waste in average a half volley ever 5 shots. Splitting your guns in two lets you apply that DPS on another target. That is a 10% increase in DPS.

How much would you pay for an implant that gives you +10% DPS?



You are still hung up on the one time cycle when switching between targets.

Lets make this real simple. If you see one ship, and you are alone, is there a loss in DPS between grouping said weapons and firing them separately. That is what is being asked. Some people claim that one scratch hit spreads to each gun, the dev says no. The other person quoted still couldn't understand that and apparently you didn't understand that person.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Lexmana
#53 - 2012-05-08 18:05:18 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lets make this real simple. If you see one ship, and you are alone, is there a loss in DPS between grouping said weapons and firing them separately. That is what is being asked.

That is kind of an odd question don't you think? It would probably only account for something like 0.1% of the encounters in EVE. The rest involves multiple targets.

Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Some people claim that one scratch hit spreads to each gun, the dev says no. The other person quoted still couldn't understand that and apparently you didn't understand that person.

You don't realize that it makes no difference if hit and damage calculations are made for each gun separately or for all grouped guns together in terms of DPS, unless you are fighting multiple targets ofc.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#54 - 2012-05-08 18:08:31 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lets make this real simple. If you see one ship, and you are alone, is there a loss in DPS between grouping said weapons and firing them separately. That is what is being asked.

That is kind of an odd question don't you think? It would probably only account for something like 0.1% of the encounters in EVE. The rest involves multiple targets.

Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Some people claim that one scratch hit spreads to each gun, the dev says no. The other person quoted still couldn't understand that and apparently you didn't understand that person.

You don't realize that it makes no difference if hit and damage calculations are made for each gun separately or for all grouped guns together in terms of DPS, unless you are fighting multiple targets ofc.

How many ships you see or are fighting against doesn't have any impact on the DPS of your weapons. Just sayin'.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Lexmana
#55 - 2012-05-08 18:12:10 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

How many ships you see or are fighting against doesn't have any impact on the DPS of your weapons. Just sayin'.

... unless damage has to be applied to count, which makes some kind of sense don't you think?
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#56 - 2012-05-08 18:31:06 UTC
Lexmana wrote:

You don't realize that it makes no difference if hit and damage calculations are made for each gun separately or for all grouped guns together in terms of DPS



THAT IS WHAT IS BEING ASKED! Congratulations, you just got back in to the conversation. I did realize that, I just wasted a page trying to get you to see it as well. It is quite evident that there is a severe miscommunication going on here.

Lexmana wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lets make this real simple. If you see one ship, and you are alone, is there a loss in DPS between grouping said weapons and firing them separately. That is what is being asked.

That is kind of an odd question don't you think? It would probably only account for something like 0.1% of the encounters in EVE. The rest involves multiple targets.


It's only odd if you make it odd. In my line of work I fly solo often and I usually catch my targets alone in the first few days of a war until they figure out that they are being hunted. As we can plainly see as evidence in this thread alone, each sector contains a different style of game play.

I also thought about your equation and set it to one of my recent fights and I only came up with a 4% difference in damage transference, which is not the same as DPS. I can either fire the whole rack and go for overkill which is fine with me, or I can transfer half of that damage to a different ship. Either way, my dps per gun remains the same. They don't suddenly get stronger when firing upon a new ship.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#57 - 2012-05-08 18:40:13 UTC
This was a server load / traffic cost saving exercise dressed up as a player convenience feature.

If there is an issue in the damage calculation, open a bug on it. It should work out the same, but there could be rounding errors given CCP's math in the game currently :)
Lexmana
#58 - 2012-05-08 18:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
THAT IS WHAT IS BEING ASKED! Congratulations, you just got back in to the conversation. I did realize that, I just wasted a page trying to get you to see it as well. It is quite evident that there is a severe miscommunication going on here.

If you read OP you will see that is not whats being asked. And besides, who cares about your stupid question that never happen in EVE anyway?
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lets make this real simple. If you see one ship, and you are alone, is there a loss in DPS between grouping said weapons and firing them separately. That is what is being asked.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#59 - 2012-05-08 18:48:04 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Joran Dravius wrote:
Doctor Caprician wrote:
So is there, or is there not, a loss to DPS when using grouped weapons?

Do you not speak English? He said there isn't. I wish people would stop spreading that ridiculous rumor.

Well, there is loss in DPS when killing multiple targets.



How do you kill multiple targets with grouped weapons?



This is where our conversation started. This is what I have been referring to the whole time. As you can plainly see the OP is not in this quote. This is based off of the following rumor:

Tor Gungnir - I'm just a newbie, but I can guess: a grouped group of Turrets only get one "hit roll" as they all fire one attack. So you'll "Barely scratch" with all your Turrets. If you fired 'em individually I guess they get individual "hit rolls" so that some might "Wreck" the enemy whilst others "Barely Scratch".

Which was answered by this:

CCP Greyscale - We do all the hit/damage amount calculations (including wrecking shots) per-gun, even with grouped weapons. It's just that the total damage from each volley is then aggregated and applied to the target in one go.


Notice how the OP is not in any of those.

I appear to have spoken too soon when I congratulated you on catching up with the conversation. I apologize for that error in judgement.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Lexmana
#60 - 2012-05-08 18:53:00 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Joran Dravius wrote:
Doctor Caprician wrote:
So is there, or is there not, a loss to DPS when using grouped weapons?

Do you not speak English? He said there isn't. I wish people would stop spreading that ridiculous rumor.

Well, there is loss in DPS when killing multiple targets.



How do you kill multiple targets with grouped weapons?



This is where our conversation started.

I can see it starting with me saying that there is a loss in DPS when killing multiple targets. Which is true. And you are in denial.