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Adaptive Hardeners Feedback

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2ofSpades
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-05-05 06:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: 2ofSpades
(Chopped up for dummies!)





(1) I tested out the new adaptive hardeners and the idea is cool but the system is not completely adaptive. First, I noticed that once you have turned the hardener on it adapts to lets say a drake kinetic damage. Ok cool, but then after this it stops being adaptive. If IM not getting shot at I think it should automatically return to its default resistance but instead it just stays at the setting. This is not a big issue because all you have to do is turn off the hardener, but people could use the flaw to preset their resistance before a fight.

(2) The other part I noticed was the hardener didnt seem to re-adapt. I was getting shot by a drake and my resistance was all kin and a proteus warped in started shooting me. The drake had stopped shooting me but my resistance didnt re-adapt to therm/kin for the proteus. This flaw actually worked out to my advantage because I had a thermal hardener fitted so I was able to avoid a stacking penalty. After I reset the hardener it did adapt to the proteus giving me 50/50 therm/kin. Once again not very adaptive but still a cool idea, you should nerf the drake with a 15% morphing shield resistance bonus instead of its 25% across the board.

(3) As far as the time to adapt goes, I thought it was slow at first but after messing with it a little it seemed to adapt quick enough to handle any solo situation or pve.

In a nutshell, more adaptive please and add re-adapting without reset. I dont really care about the return to default part but the re-adapting I think is important. (Skip to example 2)

I hope to see t2 mods with maybe 20/20/20/20 but I wouldn't let it adapt to anything past a normal racial t2 hardener so you get something like 10/60/5/5. Wouldnt mind complex versions either. Feel free to add on or troll if you want!
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-05-05 14:49:41 UTC
These were not not seeded last time I was on but it certainly sounds an interesting mod. I am actually glad it keeps it's last resistance profile when not taking damage last thing I would want would be for it to reset in between pockets/ spawns or if I evade taking damage for a time, if it resets when switched of that sounds fine. 
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#3 - 2012-05-05 19:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Q is: does it adapt the the theoretical damage which is hitting you or the effective damage after all resistences are applied?. This could explain 2)

edit: example: if you are hit with 90% exp and 10%kin it could still ignore exp if your kin resistance is significantly lower than exp

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
2ofSpades
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-05-05 19:55:56 UTC
Im not sure...The way it seemed was that it would only change after there was incoming damage. If someone just shot you one time it didnt change much.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#5 - 2012-05-06 22:51:01 UTC
I have a few question, since SiSi is not working for me.

What is the highest value a single resist reach after being hit by one damage type? Let say you get shot from a drake with kin missiles, what is the highest value kin will reach before it stops?

Any idea of this module has stacking penalty or is it like a damage control with no stacking penalty.

Is it possible to fit Both a Damage Control and Adaptive Hardeners?(both have an indication that you can only fit one per ship).
Adunh Slavy
#6 - 2012-05-07 20:08:17 UTC
It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#7 - 2012-05-07 21:13:03 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place.


it starts omni. as you get damaged it adjusts. How else would it adapt without a level base to start from.
Adunh Slavy
#8 - 2012-05-07 21:43:43 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place.


it starts omni. as you get damaged it adjusts. How else would it adapt without a level base to start from.



Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive"

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Perihelion Olenard
#9 - 2012-05-07 21:52:08 UTC
What would be the point of this module if it doesn't adapt at all? To waste cap and CPU? It would do exactly the same thing as the adaptive nano plating II which needs only a low slot and 1 PG.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#10 - 2012-05-07 22:31:30 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive"


Then you're doing it wrong.
So a Serpentis slaps my armor around for a bit, as the armor cycles my em and expl drops while my thermal and kin goes up.
The module now has 0% em and expl and 30% kin and thermal.
Copine Callmeknau
Callmeknau Holdings
#11 - 2012-05-07 22:50:41 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place.


it starts omni. as you get damaged it adjusts. How else would it adapt without a level base to start from.



Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive"

Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^

There should be a rather awesome pic here
2ofSpades
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-05-08 01:38:14 UTC
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
I have a few question, since SiSi is not working for me.

What is the highest value a single resist reach after being hit by one damage type? Let say you get shot from a drake with kin missiles, what is the highest value kin will reach before it stops?

Any idea of this module has stacking penalty or is it like a damage control with no stacking penalty.

Is it possible to fit Both a Damage Control and Adaptive Hardeners?(both have an indication that you can only fit one per ship).


1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%

2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.

3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-08 02:39:36 UTC
My testing went as followed, 1% per cycle change. starting at it's 15%

It will change if the damage changes to a weakness without reset it seemed to me, if you are taking a different damage type.

The big flaw is time, it takes a fair while to become useful and only marginally moreso than an EANM II 90 seconds just so it can have two resists equal, not worth it in my opinion for anything outside of pve.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-05-08 02:47:25 UTC
2ofSpades wrote:
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
I have a few question, since SiSi is not working for me.

What is the highest value a single resist reach after being hit by one damage type? Let say you get shot from a drake with kin missiles, what is the highest value kin will reach before it stops?

Any idea of this module has stacking penalty or is it like a damage control with no stacking penalty.

Is it possible to fit Both a Damage Control and Adaptive Hardeners?(both have an indication that you can only fit one per ship).


1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%

2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.

3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.



Damage Controls do not stack.
Source: Stacking Penalties

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#15 - 2012-05-08 14:22:20 UTC
2ofSpades wrote:


1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%

2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.

3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.


That's not stacking penalty you posted.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#16 - 2012-05-08 19:27:32 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
2ofSpades wrote:


1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%

2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.

3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.


That's not stacking penalty you posted.


This.


Also, you're confusing diminishing returns with stacking penalty.

I'm not sure about the way the stacking penalty is calculated, but this is the formula for these diminishing returns:


Say you have two 50% resist mods and 0% base resists, to make this easy to calculate.

The first resist gives you the full 50% resistance, leaving 50% of the incoming damage leaking through.

The second mod can only mitigate the damage that's still 'there', so to speak, and reduces it by a further 50%.

In numbers, you'd be at 75% resistance in theory. The stacking penalty causes you to be at around 70% in practice, I believe. it gets worse with every resistance mod you add, except for damage controls. These are only affected by diminishing returns.
Adunh Slavy
#17 - 2012-05-08 19:30:26 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^



FUAH

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
CCP Tuxford
C C P
C C P Alliance
#18 - 2012-05-08 23:08:47 UTC
2ofSpades wrote:

(2) The other part I noticed was the hardener didnt seem to re-adapt. I was getting shot by a drake and my resistance was all kin and a proteus warped in started shooting me. The drake had stopped shooting me but my resistance didnt re-adapt to therm/kin for the proteus. This flaw actually worked out to my advantage because I had a thermal hardener fitted so I was able to avoid a stacking penalty. After I reset the hardener it did adapt to the proteus giving me 50/50 therm/kin. Once again not very adaptive but still a cool idea, you should nerf the drake with a 15% morphing shield resistance bonus instead of its 25% across the board.


The version we have is pretty simple. It just takes one point of the two lowest resists and adds them to the two highest resists. When it has no more points to take it just does nothing. The issue you have now is that your hardener has adapted to only kinetic damage which means all the other resistances are now at zero. This means as long as your kinetic damage is is one of the two highest damage types you take then it well never shift to take your second highest one into account. This seems slightly broken to me so I'll bring it to the attention of my team.

https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-05-09 00:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
CCP Tuxford wrote:

The version we have is pretty simple. It just takes one point of the two lowest resists and adds them to the two highest resists. When it has no more points to take it just does nothing. The issue you have now is that your hardener has adapted to only kinetic damage which means all the other resistances are now at zero. This means as long as your kinetic damage is is one of the two highest damage types you take then it well never shift to take your second highest one into account. This seems slightly broken to me so I'll bring it to the attention of my team.


If you make a bit of calculations you can show that the best resistance profile against a given damage distribution profile is the one that has 60% resist on the highest incoming damage type. This assuming a flat resistance background and a constraint on the sum of the resistances.

You can pretty much demonstrate this using Lagrange multipiers.

For this reason, I think that the best algorithm would be to take 1% resistance away from the 3 lowest damage types and add 3% resistance to the highest damage type (or 2%-1%-0% if 1-2-3 of the lowest resistance are already zero, respectively).
This change will entail a faster "convergence" and thus may require lenghtening the cycle time (but I don't think it's necessary). Moreover, the module will not remain "stuck".

(my 2 cents)
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-05-09 00:09:05 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive"

Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^


I've sat here for half an hour taking damage on my adaptive invulnerability field, and it's still 25/25/25/25 Sad

I'm guessing you only meant to reply to one specific sentence when quoting the entire thread? What?
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