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Major scam

Author
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-05-07 20:02:09 UTC
corestwo wrote:
No, as many would fill as possible and then the rest would fail and cancel. It is not possible to go negative with margin trading.


I was under the impression that you got fined for not covering your orders and this fine would cause you to go negative to some small fixed amount.

My wording was a bit off.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#42 - 2012-05-07 20:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Nope. Doesn't work that way. The order simply fails...if you happen to be online, it will tell you that you don't have enough isk to complete that operation, but that's about it.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#43 - 2012-05-07 20:46:43 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Tell you the truth, I've never scammed in my life. I have all of three suicide ganks to my name, ever. All of my beating up on carebears is done out in 0.0, where they're implicitly consent to PvP, whether they think they have or not.


I still hold that eve should be the way it is, that things like this scam, and thievery in general, and suicide ganking, and so on, should be possible. If you want a game where that kinda stuff isn't allowed, go find one. This one isn't it.

e: Lets be clear here, you're saying that the game, which CCP has designed from day one to allow for the unwary player to lose everything, should not be a game in which you can lose everything. So uh, yeah.


I basically agree with you, and yet I don't think that's the reason why this "scam" should be allowed to continue. The reason why it should be allowed to continue is because the game mechanic in question is fully usable for "legitimate" purposes, and really the scam itself has very little functionally to do with the Margin Trading mechanic. It's a totally psychological game, and one that could be played (albeit a bit more time-intensively) even without Margin Trading.

Just to give an example of something I'm glad was greatly diminished: Contract scamming. The reason why is because those were mostly scams perpetrated with the help of really poor graphical UI. There was no reason for the UI and graphical elements to be so horrible that they actually contributed to scamming. I'm sure a lot of old contract scammers moaned when the changes hit, but the net result was an actual benefit to players in the form of a more informative UI.

With Margin Trading, if we gimped the mechanic in order to satisfy these bitter scam victims, we'd be wrecking the game for a lot of legit players who use Margin Trading for non-scammy purposes. That's why Margin Trading should stay the way it is, not because we need to "preserve the scams" or whatever.


Are you against an info box that says "The following ITEM you are trying to buy has a lack of funds to complete the trade?:"


Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Lauren Hellfury
Super Happy Awesome Fun Times
#44 - 2012-05-07 20:53:13 UTC
Which would be pointless as by then you'd already purchased the seriously overpriced stuff. All it would achieve is stating a reason why it failed rather than the generic "... failed to find a match" one.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#45 - 2012-05-07 20:58:49 UTC
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
Which would be pointless as by then you'd already purchased the seriously overpriced stuff. All it would achieve is stating a reason why it failed rather than the generic "... failed to find a match" one.


Well, how am I suppose to know then that the BUY order does not have enough funds to cover the trade? What's the point of trading and market orders if the amount shown is not valid? How can I make a good decsion on a buy order when I have no way to tell that the item listed is not covered.

I wish plex could also be margin traded. Man would CCP fail as a company fast!
Just think how many people would get to play for free!

This is flat out as bad as RMT in my opnion I see no difference.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#46 - 2012-05-07 21:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
very very effective. Can anything be done to get my ISK back or is that it?


Nope. No rules were broken. Think about it rationally for a moment and you'll realize that you were the victim of your own greed, and nothing else.


False, I was the victim of an unknown and undocumented game mechanic.
I think the real greed is people who margin trade with funds they don't have to try and scam people who do.
They are lazy and don't want to run missions and put their time in, and so they get to play for free because the game allows for such activity.

RMT was also a problem and still is with eve online and I think margin trading is just as bad. Because it allows people with little experience and NO ISK to scam and steal from people who pay or put the time into playing the game,.

You can try and argue it all you want but the fact remains that margin trading is just a bad game mechanics because it allows players to put up ficticious buy and sell orders with little to no risk.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Decidivus Jones
Harriman Trust
#47 - 2012-05-07 21:08:15 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:

Well, how am I suppose to know then that the BUY order does not have enough funds to cover the trade?


"BUY order is placed for 80,000 with a minimum of 20,000 units (also happens to be the total amount needed, )"


This is usually a good indicator... Roll




cyndrogen wrote:
What's the point of trading and market orders if the amount shown is not valid? How can I make a good decsion on a buy order when I have no way to tell that the item listed is not covered.


I still haven't seen a good response to Mu-Shi Ai's comment yet. How do you know someone didn't fill the order before you?



Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
If somebody had just happened to fill that order legitimately mere seconds before you did, it would have been the same exact outcome for all you know. There is never any guarantee that a juicy buy order is still going to be there by the time you get around to filling it, whether the order is legit or set up to fail.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-05-07 21:08:26 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
False, I was the victim of an unknown and undocumented game mechanic.


False.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#49 - 2012-05-07 21:10:04 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
False, I was the victim of an unknown and undocumented game mechanic.


False.



where is it documented by CCP?

Please point me to the wiki page.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2012-05-07 21:11:48 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
False, I was the victim of an unknown and undocumented game mechanic.


False.



where is it documented by CCP?

Please point me to the wiki page.

in the text of the skill you nitwit

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#51 - 2012-05-07 21:12:04 UTC
Decidivus Jones wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:

Well, how am I suppose to know then that the BUY order does not have enough funds to cover the trade?


"BUY order is placed for 80,000 with a minimum of 20,000 units (also happens to be the total amount needed, )"


This is usually a good indicator... Roll




cyndrogen wrote:
What's the point of trading and market orders if the amount shown is not valid? How can I make a good decsion on a buy order when I have no way to tell that the item listed is not covered.


I still haven't seen a good response to Mu-Shi Ai's comment yet. How do you know someone didn't fill the order before you?



Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
If somebody had just happened to fill that order legitimately mere seconds before you did, it would have been the same exact outcome for all you know. There is never any guarantee that a juicy buy order is still going to be there by the time you get around to filling it, whether the order is legit or set up to fail.


Because the station that placed the BUY order was empty when I docked. THey had to DELIVER the goods in order to collect the ISK placed on the market, since I had bought all of the items in system NO one could have beat me to the order.

PLUS, WHile I was docked the order was still up, meaning no one else could have filled it.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Decidivus Jones
Harriman Trust
#52 - 2012-05-07 21:12:56 UTC
papamike wrote:
I dont believe a 3yr old player would be dumb enough to pour every last bit of isk into a single market order and have nothing left to fall back on

Im calling a troll/ melodramatic rage post from someone who isnt in fact 'quiting eve'

If you arent trolling or embellishing your rage-quit, honestly youre a **** and probably wont be missed by anyone.




+1
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2012-05-07 21:13:02 UTC
eve is a game that properly allows those with an information edge to exploit ignorant savages

as you've been exploited i guess we know which side of the divide you fall on

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#54 - 2012-05-07 21:13:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
False, I was the victim of an unknown and undocumented game mechanic.


False.



where is it documented by CCP?

Please point me to the wiki page.

in the text of the skill you nitwit


Nothing in the text warns about any possible scam genius or that orders will be cancelled.
It's very poorly explained and therefore not documented.

Logic try it.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#55 - 2012-05-07 21:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
cyndrogen wrote:
RMT was also a problem and still is with eve online and I think margin trading is just as bad. Because it allows people with little experience and NO ISK to scam and steal from people who pay or put the time into playing the game,.

at margin trading V you still put 23.73% of the isk required for the order's full value into escrow, thus the need for a minimum quantity > 23.73% of the order's value to prevent a savvy player from simply selling them 23% of the order.

and didn't you whine earlier in the thread about how the only point of the skill is to allow more experienced players to exploit newbies? but now they have no experience?

next bad argument please?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-05-07 21:14:11 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
Because the station that placed the BUY order was empty when I docked. THey had to DELIVER the goods in order to collect the ISK placed on the market, since I had bought all of the items in system NO one could have beat me to the order.

PLUS, WHile I was docked the order was still up, meaning no one else could have filled it.


1) rofl
2) i call bullshit
3) ignoring 2, the product could be there already and remotely sold
4) wolololol
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2012-05-07 21:15:34 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:

Nothing in the text warns about any possible scam genius or that orders will be cancelled.
It's very poorly explained and therefore not documented.

Logic try it.

interestingly the "give isk" function doesn't contain a long list of ways you might not want to use that option either

guess all scams that involve you giving isk are also "not documented"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#58 - 2012-05-07 21:17:04 UTC
corestwo wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
RMT was also a problem and still is with eve online and I think margin trading is just as bad. Because it allows people with little experience and NO ISK to scam and steal from people who pay or put the time into playing the game,.

at margin trading V you still put 23.73% of the isk required for the order's full value into escrow, thus the need for a minimum quantity > 23.73% of the order's value to prevent a savvy player from simply selling them 23% of the order.

next bad argument please?



Or they already thought of this, made the order twice as large, and sold to it (losing a little in taxes on the way).

So the Escrow is now completely empty.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2012-05-07 21:17:29 UTC
that you were not led by the hand through all permutations that game mechanics could be used is not them being "undocumented"

ccp has been horrible on documentation for some time but here the issue is you're just a moron

would you like to join goonfleet: we have great newbie programs that will help you avoid common scams

just contract me your stuff to move to deklein and put in an app saying "weaselior applicant"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Lauren Hellfury
Super Happy Awesome Fun Times
#60 - 2012-05-07 21:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lauren Hellfury
So you were docked in an empty station and you think that there is no way for anyone else to have sold items at that station without being there....... You really, *really* *REALLY* need to brush up on trading. I'd suggest starting with reading the descriptions of the skills in the trade section of the skill market.


edit: You know you can trust W's offer because he didn't ask for a security deposit.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams