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station trading overpowered form of income?
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Nazim
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-05-07 16:11:08 UTC
Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-05-07 16:21:01 UTC
I think station trading is one of the few lucrative professions that is set apart because there is nothing artificially setting and maintaining the high returns. If station trading is so great and such easy money, why aren't there more people doing it and driving down the margins? There is next to nothing stopping competition driving margins, and thereby returns, to effectively zero.

Even something similar like supercapital building, which I also think is fine as a high return profession, you have a huge initial investment. Trading can be as simple as playing the margin on one item.

If they want to increase transaction taxes to pull more isk out of the economy in general, and it's done based on sound economic principles, then that is another matter.
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-05-07 16:25:22 UTC
"Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?"

You cannot make 200-300M per hour on a steady basis station trading.
there are a few traders that cross the 1B a day, but i think it's a handful.

You might've had a good hour that amazingly all your orders moved exactly at the same time, But that's not the case.
It also stops scaling up at around 3-4B unless you kickstart another toon.

Why would they heavily tax to redistribute the wealth?
It will hit manufacturers harder, and prices would pretty much roll down to consumers. Plus you're not redistributing anything, you just made things more expensive for everyone, and the isk is out of the system.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#4 - 2012-05-07 16:50:52 UTC
Your windfall from station trading is dependent mostly on player skill rather than your character's skill's. The few who can make over a bil/day sitting in station have both the market know-how and the capital to do it.

There is nothing wrong with station traders. Unlike Incursions, it doesn't flood EVE with new currency. In fact it slowly reduces the currency supply (Via SCC tax and broker fees).

It is a unique profession in EVE that is not for everyone. It is not so lucritive as to require everyone to play that way to remain competitive. In fact, the more people who try to become market traders, the less everyone makes. This ensures that the income level is always somewhat on par with other forms of income.

If there are too many or too few people playing the markets, it will self-correct eventually as people change professions.

That is the primary complaint about Incursions: They introduce new ISK into the game, and your level of profit is not reduced as more and more people do them.

If you want to get a slice of the station trader's pie, give it a try.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#5 - 2012-05-07 16:51:13 UTC
you people are terrible at recognizing trolls

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Claire Voyant
#6 - 2012-05-07 17:08:13 UTC
corestwo wrote:
you people are terrible at recognizing trolls

And yet you get into long discussion threads with Yuki.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-05-07 18:02:50 UTC
I was thinking the opposite, I want trading to get buffed via a reverse tax. Everytime I make a trade or update one, the station should give me 1 mil for the privilege of having me use their station. This is the thread where we post our terrible, poorly thought out ideas, right?
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#8 - 2012-05-07 19:16:56 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
corestwo wrote:
you people are terrible at recognizing trolls

And yet you get into long discussion threads with Yuki.


Boom, headshot.
Adunh Slavy
#9 - 2012-05-07 19:45:38 UTC
Nazim wrote:
and redestribute the wealth?



NPCs don't need wealth, only hamsters

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Debiru
Universal Fleet Operations
#10 - 2012-05-07 19:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Debiru
Station trading has risk as well as reward, and your reward depends entirely on the actions of other players. The only way to nerf station trading is nerf competition between players, and CCP doesn't do that. Station traders play their part. It's a very lucrative part, but also has decently high risk, if your investments run short, and also requires a substantial startup capital to do effectively. It also requires a person who has a measure of intelligence, attentiveness, and who does their research, and EVE rewards those things, not punish for them. Station trading isn't all that different from daytrading in real life (case in point, one of the fundamental skills for it is called daytrading). Furthermore, station traders are a very useful force for industrialists, since many of them drive up prices through manipulation, allowing larger profit margins for industrialists. The only people who get hurt are consumers, and the smart consumers wait and buy their goods when they are cheap.

It's a good system we have, and I would view a nerf to station traders (keep in mind I am not a station trader) as a horrible idea. Not to mention industrialists can make just as much money as a station trader. Level 4 runners are the only ones losing out.



Also the connections between the first post and the crap spewing from the Occupy movement protestors made me laugh, I thank you for that, you hit it almost spot-on.
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2012-05-08 00:16:28 UTC
The 'redistribute the wealth' line made me laugh as well.

Eve doesn't equal a real world with finite resources.

In Eve there is isk to be made everywhere out of thin air via agents and resources ( asteroids, PI, moon goo, ice ) that never really run out no matter how long you collect them. Everyone in Eve is, or is in the process of building up to being, space rich.

There is no need to nerf station trading because of the ease of becoming space rich.

I am not a trader, though I have respect for those that are able to do this both in Eve and out in RL.

Good troll.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#12 - 2012-05-08 00:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Actually, station trading differs from daytrading or regular stock trading in a very important way, which is that we are actually productive. We give those who need to offload goods, but who lack the skills, time, and/or will to do so on their own using sell orders the opportunity to get paid for their items. We put our own money, and we facilitate the movement of these essential goods throughout the market, so that others can make productive use of them in PVP and PVE pursuits.

If we began taxing this at a heavier rate, there would simply be less of us around, and the movement of these essential goods into players' hands would be slowed dramatically.

I know it's easy to think that station traders don't perform any useful function, but that's simply not true. If we weren't buying your mission loot, manufactured goods, or whatever else, then you'd have to sell the stuff on your own, which in most cases would mean that you lose time doing stuff you really want to be doing.
sitar seaton
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-08 02:31:11 UTC
It is the way of the world today to increase taxes and "spread the wealth". Increasing transaction taxes 10x or more would be a great way to soak it to the rich and remove isk from the system. The result would be lower inflation, which would help the common pod pilot.

Let's bring class warfare to eve!
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#14 - 2012-05-08 02:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Nazim wrote:
Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?


It takes Allot of Skill, talent desire and TIME to be successful, Most fail badly.

Most Fail badly because all they see is a huge profit margin with 30 min per day, in reality when some one comes in and tries to brute force take something over, resistance will be met, usually by some one who has bin doing that one single thing for years losses due to greed and lack patience are sure to follow.

Frankly if I cant enjoy trading, believe me I will leave, 100% guaranteed.

I left StartrekOnline, (lifetime account) and I wont hesitate to leave this one if nerfing takes the same rout that pretty much devastated that game.

Let me put it another way, I will strive to be the first to post my account details and perma quit if the devs get trolled again (playerbase gets the brunt of it)

edit part:
Oh yes and for the dev reading this, here is something important you guys should know about Startrek online history.

Their forums got trolled pretty hard, I.E. first PvP got nerfed and then the trolls complained about everything else as their devs posted repeatedly "We want you to make the choices"

Months later as the playerbase began to dive, they realized what happened, the trolls began to scream "Nerf the forums" any one who so much as hinted in the direction of trolling got muted and or marked as a "Spammer"

Do not follow this rout.
clamslayer
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-05-08 03:11:30 UTC
Nazim wrote:
Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?



this chode voted for obama for sure
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#16 - 2012-05-08 03:40:38 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
It is the way of the world today to increase taxes and "spread the wealth". Increasing transaction taxes 10x or more would be a great way to soak it to the rich and remove isk from the system. The result would be lower inflation, which would help the common pod pilot.

Let's bring class warfare to eve!


Actually, the result of cheap trade activity on the markets is both lower prices for the "common pod pilot" and higher buy prices for the stuff they sell to traders via buy orders. Why? Because if you have more people competing on both sides of that coin, buy prices get driven up (traders want to have their orders filled first) and sell prices go down (traders want to sell their supplies off first).

So even from a "class warfare" perspective, it doesn't make good sense to bump up transaction taxes. Remaining traders would just make "common pod pilots" pay for it anyway.

Taxes don't serve a function for the common good in EVE like they do in the real world. I don't think comparing the two is really possible.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#17 - 2012-05-08 05:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:

So even from a "class warfare" perspective, it doesn't make good sense to bump up transaction taxes. Remaining traders would just make "common pod pilots" pay for it anyway.

Taxes don't serve a function for the common good in EVE like they do in the real world. I don't think comparing the two is really possible.


Trading taxes don't serve a function for the common good in RL either.
The markets are the blood that fuels all the economies. Tossing random sand in the markets cogs in the form of taxes achieves exclusively:

- A slow down of said blood. Less liquidity = less optimization = worse prices = worse competitivity on the nations involved. But try explaining this to some stupid a5s socialist we are overloaded with.

- These taxes get all immediately mirrored and moved onto the rest of the economy, expecially the end / retail users.

- Capital cannot be commanded by decree. It is as futile as grabbing water with the hands. Investors and traders just move away or circumvent it.

Examples:

- shadow banking and the resulting 2007-2008 worldwide debacles happened because (expecially in the USA) over-regulation made markets non optimal. Some big markets and expecially the liquidity just moved over to a parallel economy, where regulation did not exist. There is a regulation thresold beyond which the capital just moves to other circuits. Politician morons have to ~deal with it~.


- what "recently" happened when USA introduced more restrictions on Forex => lots of people trading on USA accounts moved to Great Britain or Hong Kong including me. The largest brokers actually offered us free moving of all our accounts overseas.

- every time some idiot governor wakes up in the morning and sets up the umpteenth market tax (instead of firing their excess state workers and reducing waste) or invents some new sand to toss in the markets cogs, investors promptly bring their capitals away and that country gets poorer as a result.


We EvE players of all should know, every time some additional cost (hidden or not) gets thrown in the economy, the affected items *immediately* become more expensive on the end buyers.

Taxes always and only impact the poorer commoneers. They are defensless against the idiocy of those governing them.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Starsnbars
RIP Fatigue
Ignore This.
#18 - 2012-05-08 05:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Starsnbars
Station trading provides liquidity to the market. When I purchase something from someone that wants to sell, they get isk that they can use to buy what they want. When I relist the item I get more isk and someone can have the option to buy what they want.

In the end traders (in real life and in Eve) serve an important purpose of both seeding the market and providing the ability for individuals to both liquidate and purchase assets that they want with ease. This smooths out price swings and makes the over all market more stable.

In my mind this is a service that the game (and the real world capital markets) depend on.
Mister Crispy
AC Enterprises
#19 - 2012-05-08 07:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Crispy
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:

So even from a "class warfare" perspective, it doesn't make good sense to bump up transaction taxes. Remaining traders would just make "common pod pilots" pay for it anyway.

Taxes don't serve a function for the common good in EVE like they do in the real world. I don't think comparing the two is really possible.


[snip]


Peter Schiff's Eve account detected.

(since that might be ambiguous, I mean it as a compliment.)
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#20 - 2012-05-08 14:41:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
every time some idiot governor wakes up in the morning and sets up the umpteenth market tax (instead of firing their excess state workers and reducing waste) or invents some new sand to toss in the markets cogs, investors promptly bring their capitals away and that country gets poorer as a result.


Yeah, like the private capital that is pouring into Greece and how much wealthier that country is now that they've had 2 years of extreme "firing of state workers and waste reduction" (a/k/a "austerity measures").

I wonder how much else of your bloviating is flat-out wrong.

MDD
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