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Interstellar travel, Capital RR, and Triage discussions

Author
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-06 16:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
I began this thread by considering the capital jump drive and related issues in Eve. I saw massive Titan fleets and hotdrops on one or two players at a gate or in an anomaly; many of which I took part in. Instant movement of major enemy forces across large distances and deep into enemy space (normally considered the role of black ops). Consideration of these issues led to interesting discussion concerning hyperspace technologies and cyno-jamming fields. Have you ever wanted to fly ships like the Enterprise, the Dedalus, or the Destiny, traveling between systems using your own ship's hyperspace drive? I have, and not just for capital ships either. Here we will also talk about siege/triage, doomsday devices, and other hot topics of capital ship warfare. Much of the material in this OP was consolidated from my later posts.

The various main sci-fi franchises typically utilize hyperdrives and FTL drives for interstellar travel, though ships do travel through stargates if they are small enough (Stargate franchise). You can read many more interesting facts about interstellar travel here http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive , "It is estimated that the Prometheus' Asgard hyperdrive is capable of speeds around 803.52 trillion miles per hour, or about 136 light-years per hour, or about a kilo-parsec per day." The facts here form a basis for the hyper drive proposal to follow.

Cynojamming jams cynos thus preventing the jump drive from obtaining a lock. Currently, there is only a sov-based pos array. I want to add a cynojamming HIC script, a pos module not requiring sov, and a sov upgrade in the IHUB.

The hyperdrive proposal:
A ship can fit a hyperspace drive as either a medium slot propulsion-style module, or as an astronautics rig. Both will consume capacitor for fuel depending on the ship type. The medium slot module will use isotopes (depending on ship race) after the capacitor falls below 2/3 in order to supplement the capacitor to maintain peak cap regen. Lacking the module or the isotopes, the travel speed and capacitor usage will be proportionally reduced to match the capacitor peak recharge. The medium slot module consumes 20 GJ/s or 500 GJ/ly The cycle time is one sec and activation is 20 GJ. The maximum range given sufficient capacitor or fuel is 15.5 ly. The maximum travel speed is 2.4 ly/min. Hyperspace travel may be stopped at any time during the trip with Ctrl-space. In order to travel, right-click on the ship's capacitor after the most recent gate jump/session change is required to set the destination to any celestial object, bookmark, or 100% scan result in any system or in deep space within range and a distant marker will display on the overview for alignment. The ship must not have any hull damage, else the ship's hull will be torn apart while in hyperdrive.

In order to enter hyperspace: The ship will align toward the destination point and fuel will be consumed when the module is activated, and once it reaches the required speed (same as for warp), the ship will enter hyperspace travel at the same time that a hyperspace window opens with 2500 m in front of it. Any ship with a hyperspace drive will be able to align and lock onto the same window by right-clicking the capacitor so long as the ship is traveling in hyperspace and the following ships have sufficient fuel/capacitor to follow. Ships that enter hyperspace at the exact same moment may lock each other and engage in capacitor warfare and energy transfer. If at any time the capacitor falls below 2/3, fuel loaded in the medium slot module will be drawn as much as is needed to fill the capacitor up to 1/3 + 20 GJ for the next cycle. Once the isotopes fuel is depleted or in the case of the hyperspace rig (which cannot use isotopes), the ship will automatically reduce speed in hyperspace to match the peak capacitor regen rate. All other ships will fly past and "off-grid" at that point and all locks will break. If the ship leaves hyperspace, the hyperspace drive will cool down for 2 hours before it can be engaged again. The ship may cloak and wait out the time/log off after all timers, or sit there uncloaked and be scanned out by deep space probes. Those ships which entered the hyperspace window (which remains up while any ship is traveling through it) will continue to the target even if the originating ship dropped out of hyperspace early. Their hyperdrives will also have to cool down for two hours. Only one hyperdrive may be fit per ship. 25 CPU and 1 PG. Being completely different from warp technology, nothing can stop a hyperdrive from engaging once the hull hp (100%), alignment and fuel requirements are met.

New interstellar probes can scan down ships stranded between systems to provide a point to which a hyperdrive can lock. Fleetmates can enter hyperspace and travel to each other if the travel takes them out of their current system.

Triage and Siege should both be changed to allow both incoming RR and incoming energy transfer. They should also allow fighters (carriers) or drones, warp, movement and incoming eWar, including warp disruptors.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-05-06 17:40:58 UTC
Your corp name says everything I think about this post.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-05-06 22:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Important information has been consolidated to the original post.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-05-06 22:31:49 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The portrait of Danika Princip (above) says everything I think about his post. Now where is that short bus. It's time for you to be on your way. We have important capital discussions here.


And as a capital pilot, I do not see the point of any of what you suggest. The part about appearing in local doesn't even make sense. You're not warping through systems in anything resembling a conventional sense, why would you register as being in them?

Why should it be a pain in the arse to actually use my carrier?

How long should it take to jump the 13 light years I currently have the range for?

Why should it be impossible to predict where an opposing cap fleet is going to land, and how is that better than a cyno appearing on the overview?

Why is it a bad thing that caps are slow?

Why is it an issue that titans can DD caps?

Why do you not have scouts? A cloaked alt in an enemy's cap staging system tells you exactly what you're facing, and allows you to plan a counter.

I won't pretend to be a capital FC, I'm just a grunt, but you pretty clearly do not understand capital ships. Or tactics. Or intelligence. Or counters.


And what's wrong with my avatar? Sad
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2012-05-06 22:45:38 UTC
Posting in a stealth "I don't like having to run a Cyno alt" thread.

Also agreeing with Danika but too lazy to re-type all of what (s)he said.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#6 - 2012-05-06 23:56:41 UTC
Cyno mechanics need some attention from CCP at some point, but I dont think the proposals in this thread are the way to go.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Im Super Gay
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#7 - 2012-05-07 00:04:04 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Your corp name says everything I think about this post.

Your thoughts on the op's post is "Tartarus Ventures?"

Since a cap ship travels in a straight line to the system it jumps to, you can't "hop off" at a system along the way because seldom would the straight line ever pass through another star system. Also cynoing is akin to instantaneous stargate transportation as opposed to in system warping. Suck it up and keep using those cyno alts.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-07 00:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
So now we have a few good questions, so let's discuss them.

Quote:
The part about appearing in local doesn't even make sense. You're not warping through systems in anything resembling a conventional sense, why would you register as being in them?

A capital ship moves from point A to point B. Along the path, the capital ship will always have a "nearest" system which may show on the top left.

Quote:
Why should it be a pain in the arse to actually use my carrier?
How long should it take to jump the 13 light years I currently have the range for?

Are you saying that the travel time would make it a pain? Well, assuming that a carrier "jumps" at the same rate as it warps, then it moves at 1.5 AU/s or 2.37E-5 ly/s. Minus acceleration and deceleration time, 13 ly travel time calculates to 13/2.37E-5 or 548,080 seconds. And caps are slow, so you must have enough patience but typical interstellar travel times are much faster. But seriously, the jump drive can obviously be allowed to travel faster than that. Perhaps 0.038 ly/s which is about 1600 times the typical intrastellar warp speed. What kinds of speeds are typically of interstellar ships throughout the SciFi universe anyway? 136 ly/hr [2.27 ly/min or 2389 AU/s] yields 5.74 min to travel 13 ly. 1 ly = 63240 AU

Quote:
Why should it be impossible to predict where an opposing cap fleet is going to land, and how is that better than a cyno appearing on the overview?
Why is it a bad thing that caps are slow? Why is it an issue that titans can DD caps?
Why do you not have scouts? A cloaked alt in an enemy's cap staging system tells you exactly what you're facing, and allows you to plan a counter.

Why should it be possible to predict where they land? I am sure that you could easily tell me how a cap fleet warping to a location of their choosing without a cyno could be a good thing.
If the slow Titan can instantly move halfway across the Eve universe, times 50 and destroy a capital fleet in the blink of an eye, who in their right mind would want to pull out their capital ships?
Everyone alliance has scouts and spies. A cloaked alt can be quite useful, true. Huge supercaps dotting the Eve in-game map is also a good thing.

Quote:
Since a cap ship travels in a straight line to the system it jumps to, you can't "hop off" at a system along the way because seldom would the straight line ever pass through another star system. Also cynoing is akin to instantaneous stargate transportation as opposed to in system warping. Suck it up and keep using those cyno alts.

A jump between Fliet and neighboring Deven is 0.516 ly or 32,631 AU. So OK, I believe it is safe to assume that missing systems entirely is pretty easy. Jumping out of "jump" would simply have the ship in a very safe spot, unless there were inter-system scanners. It would have to jump to the nearest system from there, at least as far as it has enough fuel/capacitor.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#9 - 2012-05-07 00:06:13 UTC
Im Super Gay wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Your corp name says everything I think about this post.

Your thoughts on the op's post is "Tartarus Ventures?"

Since a cap ship travels in a straight line to the system it jumps to, you can't "hop off" at a system along the way because seldom would the straight line ever pass through another star system. Also cynoing is akin to instantaneous stargate transportation as opposed to in system warping. Suck it up and keep using those cyno alts.

It would certainly be amusing if ships that ran out of fuel midway got stranded in deadspace.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Im Super Gay
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#10 - 2012-05-07 00:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Im Super Gay
Do you understand the difference between AU and light years? Because 1 ly is approximately 63,240 AU. What you're describing in 3 dimensions mind you is hitting a gnat with a bullet 10 miles apart.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-07 00:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Great discussion.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2012-05-07 00:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Danika Princip
Andy Landen wrote:

A capital ship moves from point A to point B. Along the path, the capital ship may pass near enough to the systems between the two points to actually be "in" them. Sure the ship is "in jump" during the travel, but even a ship "in warp" still appears in local.


And you'd be 'in' a system for how long? Why would it even be worth coding this in?

Quote:

Are you saying that the travel time would make it a pain? Well, assuming that a carrier "jumps" at the same rate as it warps, then it moves at 1.5 AU/s. Minus acceleration and deceleration time, that calculates to 13/1.5 or 8.6 seconds. 30s align time, 10 seconds acceleration, 10 seconds deceleration. Travel time is about 50s. And caps are slow, so you must have enough patience to handle that kind of travel time.


Yes, I am.

1 AU is, according to wikipedia, approximately 63,241 AU. Meaning it would take SIX DAYS to warp 13 LY Please learn how astronomical distances are calculated, and the difference between a light year and an astronomical unit.

Quote:

Why should it be possible to predict where they land? I am sure that you could easily tell me how a cap fleet warping to a location of their choosing without a cyno could be a good thing.
If the slow Titan can instantly move halfway across the Eve universe, times 50 and destroy a capital fleet in the blink of an eye, who in their right mind would want to pull out their capital ships?
Everyone alliance has scouts and spies. A cloaked alt can be quite useful, true. Huge supercaps dotting the Eve in-game map is also a good thing.


A good thing? Yeah, for the cap fleet, it'd **** over any attempt to mount a defence though. (That, and it'd make the navigation menu an enormous pain.) Hotdrops without even a second of warning? Capfleets moving across EVE without anyone being able to spot them?

One titan cannot destroy a capital fleet. A capital fleet can easily destroy one titan.

Why is it a good thing to tell the entire universe exactly where every supercap is?


Quote:

I understand all those things. Now you are just trolling. Now where is that bridge .. oh there it is .. off you go.


Roll

Quote:

Even if the systems are spheres 30 AU in diameter (or whatever the largest system is)? how can a cap ship travel up to 14.625 AU with dozens of systems between the start and destination point, and NOT pass within 15 AU of any system's sun? Your assertion that a path rarely crosses within 15 AU of another sun appears difficult to believe. If you are right, then you won't show up in local, no problem. For instance, A jump between Fliet and neighboring Deven is 0.516 ly. I bet both systems are larger than that by many times. Jump past Fliet to Heydieles for a distance of 1.6 ly. Beginning at 0.516 ly from Fliet and ending at 1.136 ly from Fliet, you are bound to pass much closer to it during the jump. One of the largest distances in the Eve universe without systems between seems to be between TCAG-3 and G-M5L3 at 10.977 ly apart.



AU != LY. Learn the difference.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-07 01:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Good information about distances and travel speeds. Let's consider non-cap ships traveling on their own drives between systems. This happens routinely throughout other sci-fi franchises.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-05-07 01:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
I am now intrigued by this idea of outer system safes, Stranded capitol ships, and six day warps.

lets make logistics as hard as possible for nullsec,

seeing as a large number of pilots resupply themselves through the use of carriers having to do a nullsec -> hisec jump in four days, means that they cant defend their home space and whatever it is that they are getting better be damn well worth it.

maybe then nullsec will figure out a way to become self sustaining and not rely on jita

edit one ->

Its still a bad idea- (the op)

edit two -> danika's response

would make it fun. six day warps.... bet you all would respect your industrial wings more. stage caps and supers in realistic locations, and it would stop PL in their tracks.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-05-07 14:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I am now intrigued by this idea of outer system safes, Stranded capitol ships, and six day warps.

...

would make it fun. six day warps.... bet you all would respect your industrial wings more. stage caps and supers in realistic locations, and it would stop PL in their tracks.


You know, you have an interesting idea of using of the warp drive outside the system. If a ship got stuck between systems because it doesn't have fuel to power its hyperdrive for the 6 minute journey across 13 ly, then if it could use its warp drive to travel to the nearest system then it would take 25.1 hours per 1 ly. The warp drive would continuously pull capacitor so that the entire amount of capacitor for the distance was not required all at once at the beginning. The warp speed could be lowered to make the ship cap stable and not require rests to regen cap. The ship simply aligns the direction that it wishes to warp and then engages warp in continuous mode. When it gets to the place it wishes to stop, then it exits warp by deactivating the continuous warp icon. A specific distance could be entered into the continuous mode warp to exit warp automatically at a certain location/system. Or the ship could just use the hyperdrive again after the cool-down timer.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-05-07 19:02:58 UTC
:cripesduck:
Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2012-05-07 19:27:31 UTC
... bit surprised no one has offered the counter-proposal "biomass yourself" to the OP.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-05-08 02:32:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
The topic is inter-system travel, not bio-massing. We are also having important capital discussions here.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#19 - 2012-05-08 03:27:54 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
We have important capital discussions here.



GUYS LOOK HOW COOL I AM, I FLY A CAPITAL
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2012-05-08 03:37:28 UTC
But seriously, it sounds like you don't know anything about capitals.
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