These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

ZOMG Kitsune
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#41 - 2012-05-06 18:39:36 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
All of the other EAS are complete garbage.
And one day you'll met a good keres pilot. Point+damp outside of your locking & drone control range.

It's nasty.


I'm a big fan of damps, no need to sell me on the idea. I've killed more mission runners with a Lachesis than I can count. Long range point + damps is brilliant. Too bad the Keres has no dps lol.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#42 - 2012-05-06 19:46:22 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Too bad the Keres has no dps lol.
Enough to kill bombers ! But yeah.
I don't get why the maulus has 2 drones and the keres 1. His brother is stuck in the drone bay.

CCP LISTEN TO ME
JOE THE DRONE IS HAPPY OUTSIDE KILLING STUFF
BUT TIMMY THE DRONE WANTS TO PLAY TOO

:cry: :whine: Lol

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#43 - 2012-05-06 20:29:00 UTC
And another thread starts.

I could not ferreted me mega guns for the mean overpowered ECM because me wiilllll. Of fit them ECCM things and just look stupid as thy kill me.

Really another one of these?
Bernard Schuyler
Thundererz
#44 - 2012-05-07 15:19:43 UTC
While I feel for you OP, this really is an ECM whine, because honestly, would the outcome have been ANY different if it was a Falcon or Rook instead?

The fact that the Kitsune platform is effective isn't particularly relevant here.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#45 - 2012-05-07 16:07:53 UTC
Tbh EAFs, Kitsune included are only useful in a blob v one person context, realistically... I mean in a fight with more people involved the first to get a gun, a missile, a drone or a nasty fart on that kitsune would have blaped it...

If anything I d like them buffed (and I dont even fly one with tech II EWAR on any char I own)... To make any sort of sense EAFs should have equal tank to an AF. Otherwise the moment your gang is facing more than a couple of hostiles every EAF pilot in the field would have been better of with a T1 EWAR frig (entierely disposable) or a T1 EWAR cruiser.

This does not mean that I dont have some sympathy for the OP. Indeed I feel the bigger problem with EWAR is that it is very effective against the solo player and progressively less effective against the blob.

What I persobally would like to see to overcome this would be an exponential increase in the EHP of ewar ships paired with a crippling stacking penalty to every second module activated against the same target. In a way that a Falcon with 5 multis could have 30% chance each to jam 5 targets of BS strength (permajamming 1.5 BSs for as logn as it is on the field) or a 38% (say) chance of jamming a single BS with all 5 mids on it...

I think this (appropriately tweaked by testing and whatnot) would be a step in the right direction...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#46 - 2012-05-07 16:19:17 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:


If it weren't for the Kitsune, I could have killed *every single ship* in the enemy gang. Sure, it was a gang of 12+, but nothing I couldn't handle. The only issue was that I was sitting there helpless, unable to lock ANYTHING, for the duration of the 'fight'.


You'd have been just as dead just as quickly if that Kitsune had been a Sentinel.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2012-05-07 20:58:30 UTC
ECM shouldn't jam ships, it should jam modules.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2012-05-07 22:07:04 UTC
So what the OP is saying is...


...he would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddling Kitsune?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#49 - 2012-05-08 00:25:39 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
So what the OP is saying is...


...he would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddling Kitsune?


I don't think so, but he probably might enjoyed a fight where he could do something(even if the result would still be the same) more than just watching your ship dying.

For me at least this is the worst part about ECM, you can try to get closer or switch targets against damps, you time cap boosters different under neuts, you try to bring transversal down, range up/down vsTDs etc. With ECM there is simply nothing you can actively do against it without a lock, what makes it a very annoying mechanic(besides being kind of overpowered in small gang and solo fights).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Ogopogo Mu
O C C U P Y
#50 - 2012-05-08 00:50:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
So what the OP is saying is...


...he would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddling Kitsune?


Why it's old man Malcanis, owner of the haunted shipyard!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#51 - 2012-05-08 02:07:19 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So what the OP is saying is...


...he would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddling Kitsune?


I don't think so, but he probably might enjoyed a fight where he could do something(even if the result would still be the same) more than just watching your ship dying.

For me at least this is the worst part about ECM, you can try to get closer or switch targets against damps, you time cap boosters different under neuts, you try to bring transversal down, range up/down vsTDs etc. With ECM there is simply nothing you can actively do against it without a lock, what makes it a very annoying mechanic(besides being kind of overpowered in small gang and solo fights).


Would it have been a better fight if the other fleet brought bonused tracking disruptors and damps? No. He still would have lost. At best, he would have watched every single one of his shots miss. At worst, he would have been damped down and unable to lock anything that had a long point on him.

I understand the frustration, I've been the stupid solo pilot who engaged a ship that I thought I could kill - only to have his 15 friends jump in to jam me and whore on a solo Rifter kill. Did the enemy Falcon in my fight change the outcome? No. The rest of the gang would have killed me anyway.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2012-05-08 02:53:17 UTC
A bit late and slightly OT, but…
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Assuming a drone control range of 45km, a Kitsune's base lock range, without any other bonuses, and all skills at 5, is 52.5km. A Hypnos Multispec with all skills at 5 has an optimal of 53km. That is just under 10km outside of drone range.
…always assume a drone control range of 57km, because that's what people will have without going all out with their drone skills.

20km base + 25km for Scout Drones V + 12km for EWar Drone Interfacing IV (some will take it to V for the full 60km, but anyone with a clue will have it at IV).
Zahhadune
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-05-08 19:17:21 UTC
Why do people assume that ECM stacks??? It doesn't, each module is independent of the next. If you have 4 multi spec ecm modules and each one has a 25% chance to jam that does mean they have a 100% chance to jam you. theoretically they still only have a 25% chance to jam you. Realistically its much higher.
Andrea Griffin
#54 - 2012-05-08 19:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Griffin
The Sentinel is not garbage. It is an excellent ship - against one or two targets. Too flimsy for anything more, but for Very Small Gang Warfare it's a nice little ship, and it's good for some solo applications as well. It takes some finesse to pull off though - it's not for the faint of heart.

Crellion wrote:
Tbh EAFs, Kitsune included are only useful in a blob v one person context, realistically...
Not true; I used to fly the Kitsune in gang fights (4-8 vs. 4-8) to great effect when I was in Blood Money Cartel.

Why use a Kitsune over a Blackbird? Greater jam strength, greater agility. I much prefer it. Like the Sentinel, it's flimsy as heck, you have to be careful, but it's a nice little frigate.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
ELECTR0FREAK
#55 - 2012-05-09 01:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK
Zahhadune wrote:
Why do people assume that ECM stacks??? It doesn't, each module is independent of the next. If you have 4 multi spec ecm modules and each one has a 25% chance to jam that does mean they have a 100% chance to jam you. theoretically they still only have a 25% chance to jam you. Realistically its much higher.


Actually the chance of successfully jamming with one or more modules is calculated by first calculating the chance that no jam would succeed.

The chance a jam won't succeed is the opposite of the chance it will succeed. This is determined by subtracting the chance of success from 1 (1-.25), thus the chance a jam fails is .75 (75%) for each module. To calculate the chance of all your modules not jamming you multiply them together, ie .75*.75*.75*.75 = ~.32, or 32%.

So the opposite of all modules failing is for one or more to succeed. To determine this, subtract the chance that all modules fail from 1.

1 - .32 = .68, or 68%.

So if you use 4 jammers with a 25% chance to succeed against a target, the chance that 1 or more of them will succeed is 68%.

I find this a lot easier to understand than (1-(1-M/T)^n) where M = module jam strength, T = target sensor strength, and n = the number of jam modules you have.

Besides, if you do it the logical way, you know how to calculate multiple jammers of varying jam strength.

Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula.
Kumi Mashiba
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-05-09 01:45:50 UTC
Zahhadune wrote:
Why do people assume that ECM stacks??? It doesn't, each module is independent of the next. If you have 4 multi spec ecm modules and each one has a 25% chance to jam that does mean they have a 100% chance to jam you. theoretically they still only have a 25% chance to jam you. Realistically its much higher.


NOBODY thinks that how it works. The thing is every other module has diminishing returns. First TD cuts tracking 60%, then the next by 50%, then 30%, and so on, until the 100th TD does 0%.

Whereas ECM, first jam has a 90% chance to jam, then the next has a 90% chance to jam, up until the 100th+ jam that STILL has a 90% chance to jam. No, it should not work this way; if there are several jams on a target, it they should get decreasingly effective.

Again, NOBODY thinks 4x25% jams means a 100% chance to jam.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#57 - 2012-05-09 07:25:37 UTC
Kumi Mashiba wrote:
Zahhadune wrote:
Why do people assume that ECM stacks??? It doesn't, each module is independent of the next. If you have 4 multi spec ecm modules and each one has a 25% chance to jam that does mean they have a 100% chance to jam you. theoretically they still only have a 25% chance to jam you. Realistically its much higher.


NOBODY thinks that how it works. The thing is every other module has diminishing returns. First TD cuts tracking 60%, then the next by 50%, then 30%, and so on, until the 100th TD does 0%.

Whereas ECM, first jam has a 90% chance to jam, then the next has a 90% chance to jam, up until the 100th+ jam that STILL has a 90% chance to jam. No, it should not work this way; if there are several jams on a target, it they should get decreasingly effective.

Again, NOBODY thinks 4x25% jams means a 100% chance to jam.


Also, Damps, TPs and TDs ALL RECEIVE A STACKING PENALTY, in addition to their designed-in natural stacking issues.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#58 - 2012-05-09 08:25:12 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Kumi Mashiba wrote:
Zahhadune wrote:
Why do people assume that ECM stacks??? It doesn't, each module is independent of the next. If you have 4 multi spec ecm modules and each one has a 25% chance to jam that does mean they have a 100% chance to jam you. theoretically they still only have a 25% chance to jam you. Realistically its much higher.


NOBODY thinks that how it works. The thing is every other module has diminishing returns. First TD cuts tracking 60%, then the next by 50%, then 30%, and so on, until the 100th TD does 0%.

Whereas ECM, first jam has a 90% chance to jam, then the next has a 90% chance to jam, up until the 100th+ jam that STILL has a 90% chance to jam. No, it should not work this way; if there are several jams on a target, it they should get decreasingly effective.

Again, NOBODY thinks 4x25% jams means a 100% chance to jam.


Also, Damps, TPs and TDs ALL RECEIVE A STACKING PENALTY, in addition to their designed-in natural stacking issues.


But damps, TPs and TDs are qualitatively different in that they cause a cumulative effect, not a chance-based one.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-05-09 17:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Kumi Mashiba wrote:
Kitsunes have no tank. Pop it in one hit.

Plus they have rooms for only 4 jammers.

Summary: ECCM, set drones on kitsune, wreck fleet. Took on a 4x destroyer, incursus, + kitsune fleet the other day 1v6 in a harbinger doing just this (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13247109 , hound unaffiliated with either party).

No, kitsune are not overpowered. At all. They must be flown very carefully. And, like all other ships in eve, there is a counter tactic.


Less range than a griffin too. Wait till they make TD's work against missile ships Sentinels will be the deal.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-05-09 18:30:17 UTC
Kumi Mashiba wrote:
Whereas ECM, first jam has a 90% chance to jam, then the next has a 90% chance to jam, up until the 100th+ jam that STILL has a 90% chance to jam. No, it should not work this way; if there are several jams on a target, it they should get decreasingly effective.


also, to make people less confused, said 90% chance of jamming only happens if you have a 9 str jammer on a ship with sensor str of 10. 1:1 ratios on sensor str vs jammer str respectively means 100% jams, and in that same manner, 1:0.5 ratio means 50% jam chance.

I know (hope?) you were giving an example, but better put this on the clear too.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right