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The Hel supercarrier and Nidhoggur carrier need some attention
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Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-05-02 20:25:39 UTC
I was wondering whether there are any plans to improve the Minmatar carrier and supercarrier. Compared to their counter parts these ships are both underpowered and poorly protected. Lacking the resist bonus of Amarr and Caldari ships and the damage bonus of the Gallente ships, the Minmatar ships are becoming redundant. Minmatar ships have often been regarding as one of the heavier hitting ships, but this is not the case in the carriers. I understand that the carriers are logistic ships, so where does the 5% bonus per level fit in for the supercarrier Hel. The nidhoggur is as good as ripping other caps as a archon. It comes down to the Nidhoggur and the Hel can not stand in a fight as longs as the Amarr and Caldari equivalents or do as much damage as the Gallente, and so provide less damage to a fight over all and many of the other carriers are just as good as acting as logistics.

Please help these ships have a role, I suggest a 5% bonus to drone rate of fire per carrier level to help these ships have a worthwhile role.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2012-05-02 20:51:13 UTC
Hypothetically, Niddys and Hels could make for an awesome pantheon setup. Niddys are also really good at repping up POSs.

But honestly... except for the Archon, all the carriers have their "little" problems.

- the Thanny has the same defense issues that the Nidhoggur has... and that fighter damage bonus doesn't really help at all when you are set up for triage work (can't use drones in triage, remember?)
- The Chimera has PG/CPU issues making fitting for triage work VERY difficult. Also, it has a weakish capacitor... which doesn't jive very well with capacitor hungry Shield Boosters.

How did you Veterans start?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#3 - 2012-05-02 21:29:09 UTC
Nate Gordo wrote:
I was wondering whether there are any plans to improve the Minmatar carrier and supercarrier. Compared to their counter parts these ships are both underpowered and poorly protected. Lacking the resist bonus of Amarr and Caldari ships and the damage bonus of the Gallente ships, the Minmatar ships are becoming redundant. Minmatar ships have often been regarding as one of the heavier hitting ships, but this is not the case in the carriers. I understand that the carriers are logistic ships, so where does the 5% bonus per level fit in for the supercarrier Hel. The nidhoggur is as good as ripping other caps as a archon. It comes down to the Nidhoggur and the Hel can not stand in a fight as longs as the Amarr and Caldari equivalents or do as much damage as the Gallente, and so provide less damage to a fight over all and many of the other carriers are just as good as acting as logistics.

Please help these ships have a role, I suggest a 5% bonus to drone rate of fire per carrier level to help these ships have a worthwhile role.

+1

The Nidhoggur and Hel are a joke, to be honest so is the Naglfar. I think all the shield capital ships need looking at really.

*Well, except the Wyvern. The Wyvern is awesome.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-05-04 08:55:31 UTC
I couldnt agree more Simi, thank you for the support it is about time EVE have 4 races of capitals, CCP please give the Minnie caps some attention.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-05-04 11:09:46 UTC
Face it guys, Duct tape and capitals just doesnt go well together.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#6 - 2012-05-04 11:13:30 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Face it guys, Duct tape and capitals just doesnt go well together.


hehe good one

I will still give this a yes.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-05-04 11:14:43 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Face it guys, Duct tape and capitals just doesnt go well together.

Shut up. It works for frigates so it will work on the capitals. Just have to use more of it.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#8 - 2012-05-04 12:54:34 UTC
As Simi (or Shah) mentioned, seems more that the minnie caps are better suited to repping a POS (i.e. not the front lines). That said, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing them made "front line capable", as with the other three.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-05-04 16:20:46 UTC
Thank you for the support so far, CCP might actually see that there is a need for these chanegs and work towards making shield caps viable compared to the armour caps.Big smile
Malinae Jor
McClardy Fiduciary Logistics
#10 - 2012-05-06 16:32:43 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

- the Thanny has the same defense issues that the Nidhoggur has... and that fighter damage bonus doesn't really help at all when you are set up for triage work (can't use drones in triage, remember?)
- The Chimera has PG/CPU issues making fitting for triage work VERY difficult. Also, it has a weakish capacitor... which doesn't jive very well with capacitor hungry Shield Boosters.


The Thanny is classic tank vs. gank argument. It doesn't really need changing, and the Thanny isn't 'meant' to be a triage carrier. Unfortunately, the opposite doesn't hold true. The Nidhoggur is meant to be a Triage carrier and it... isn't very useful because of other drawbacks.

Now, I believe the Chimera got some buffs -- either in its stats or with capital mod fitting changes, I forget which, if any -- to make it much easier to fit Triage on the Chimera. That said, the reason the Chimera has a more delicate cap is so that it doesn't become an immovable brick while IN triage. For instance, take a look at the Phoenix, that probably has the strongest active tank in the game while in siege... It's limited by capacitor as a balancing factor. The same would go for a Chimera in Triage. If it had a more robust capacitor, it could tank an absolutely monstrous amount of damage with local reps compared to other carriers.

Now, what I COULD see them doing is turning the Nidhoggur into an absolute triage beast by giving it a local rep bonus per level that applied before triage bonuses (meaning it was further amplified by Triage)... That might actually do something for it.

As far as the Hel, things tend to even out a bit more in the Supercapital field because of just sheer raw EHP. Even though the Hel doesn't get a tanking bonus, it's still really tanky. Also, nobody really active tanks supers with the current meta so an active tanking bonus would be useless.

As far as the Nag, I think it could be fixed by making it an optional "either or" for missiles vs. guns, instead of forcing you to dual-fit since that causes conflicts in your low slots trying to fit damage mods, but hey... Give it 4 highs, 3 turret, 3 launcher hardpoints, I guess?
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-06 16:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
The Nid excels at Triage, where the other carriers are also meant to specialize. Currently, triage prevents RR on itself. Triage makes all carriers and especially the Nid extremely vulnerable (a glass RR cannon, if you will). Solution: Allow RR to triaged carriers! Problem solved and Nid is back in the game. Yay! And other carriers actually mean something.

I mean, what if Sieged dreads were not allowed to put their dps out (to add to their fleet dps tank)? So triaged carriers should be allowed to receive RR to add to their fleet RR tank.

Also, let the carriers use their fighters while in triage and also move while in triage even if they can't warp out. And let sieged dreads get RR too. Even sub-cap fleets are allowed to RR their BS, as well as their logi.

OK, CCP, let's make this happen.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#12 - 2012-05-06 16:58:05 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The Nid excels at Triage, where the other carriers are also meant to specialize. Currently, triage prevents RR on itself. Triage makes all carriers and especially the Nid extremely vulnerable (a glass RR cannon, if you will). Solution: Allow RR to triaged carriers! Problem solved and Nid is back in the game. Yay! And other carriers actually mean something.

I mean, what if Sieged dreads were not allowed to put their dps out (to add to their fleet dps tank)? So triaged carriers should be allowed to receive RR to add to their fleet RR tank.

Also, let the carriers use their fighters while in triage and also move while in triage even if they can't warp out. And let sieged dreads get RR too. Even sub-cap fleets are allowed to RR their BS, as well as their logi.

OK, CCP, let's make this happen.

Have you done the maths on spider tanking triage carriers?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-06 17:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
The Nid excels at Triage, where the other carriers are also meant to specialize. Currently, triage prevents RR on itself. Triage makes all carriers and especially the Nid extremely vulnerable (a glass RR cannon, if you will). Solution: Allow RR to triaged carriers! Problem solved and Nid is back in the game. Yay! And other carriers actually mean something.

I mean, what if Sieged dreads were not allowed to put their dps out (to add to their fleet dps tank)? So triaged carriers should be allowed to receive RR to add to their fleet RR tank.

Also, let the carriers use their fighters while in triage and also move while in triage even if they can't warp out. And let sieged dreads get RR too. Even sub-cap fleets are allowed to RR their BS, as well as their logi.

OK, CCP, let's make this happen.

Have you done the maths on spider tanking triage carriers?

Yes I have. Have you done the maths on spider tanking logistcs ships (subcap)?

A triaged carrier can still be alpha'd just like any logistics ship can be alpha'd. There is no issue with it. In fact, alpha-popping a carrier is far easier given that it only takes 1 DD to do it. Find a BS that can alpha-pop a logi ship with just one module. It doesn't exist.

Added: Let's level the playing field a little by making siege and triage modules required for all cap ships special abilities, with industrial cap ships using their own module ofc. How about requiring a Siege module to activate the DD and get the dps for the Titan. Might as well require the Triage for the MOMs extra drones as well.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-05-06 18:12:50 UTC
Myself, I look at the carriers outside of triage. The loss of any remote repair system being used on the ship means larger ops is all the spider tank.

I have thought about the hel and nidhoggur, and what I think is that the armor repair bonus needs to go, make it just the shield and cap for both bonuses.

The thanatos, it has the shield and armor, but without the cap transfer, it cannot effectively work in teams. Remove the shield range bonus, make it a cap bonus.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-05-08 20:58:07 UTC
At the moment there really doesn't seem to be a place for shield based capital ships seeing as fleets are always pushed towards armor repping. I think that there should be additional drone damage bonuses to make up for the hel and nidhoggur shortcomings.
Adonis Magnko
Dark.Fleet
#16 - 2012-05-29 13:40:34 UTC
Some ideas:
-Add energy range/amount to the current Niddy/Hel bonuses? **I like this one.**
-Reduction to fighter scan resolution and/or potentially FB explosion radius per level?
-Figher and FB MWD speed per level?
-Add 1 lowslot to the Niddy/Hel (I'm just running out of ideas, this would probably be broken lol..)

Someone think of something genius, I'm bad.
Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-06-15 14:55:15 UTC
No mention of tweaks to the Hel or Nidhoggur in the latest ship balancing Dev blog. Cant understand how they cant seem to see the falws in the Minmatars capitals.

All CCP cares about are the Amarr, Caldarian and Gallente ships even seen with the graphic updates, Minnies are always last on the list.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#18 - 2012-06-15 16:38:59 UTC
Nid just needs a bit more CPU really.

Hel...another low slot maybe. More importantly though, a change to its bonuses. The rep bonuses were cool when these things could triage, but kinda pointless now.

The aeon gets a tank + remote rep range bonus
The wyvern gets a tank + remote rep range bonus
The nyx gets a remote rep range bonus + damage bonus
The hel gets a remote rep range bonus and a remote rep amount bonus

Unfortunately, with supercarriers being given fighter bombers, their role isn't really that of repping power house anymore. Sure its useful in large numbers and most supercarrier pilots fit them, but thats not really their role. The hel needs something different and useful, unrelated to remote reps. I think it should keep the remote rep amount bonus but have the rep range bonus changed. To what...I'm not quite sure :-/

Oh and shield variants of slave implants would be welcome as well.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#19 - 2012-06-15 16:40:38 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Have you done the maths on spider tanking triage carriers?


spider tanking triage carriers don't exist

seeing as you can't spider tank while in triage
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#20 - 2012-06-15 17:22:04 UTC
Liliana Rahl wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Have you done the maths on spider tanking triage carriers?


spider tanking triage carriers don't exist

seeing as you can't spider tank while in triage

Read the OP before replying, he was talking about allowing triage carriers to receive RR.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
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