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Easy solution to tech 2 BPO issue

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shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-05-06 01:51:32 UTC
ReiAnn wrote:

Quote:
Stop your god damn whining. Nobody cares.


but let's not think for a moment T2BPOs don't have a benefit or why would CCP put them in.

And you must care or why bother visiting the forum on T2BPOs unless you have some vested interest.



yep but thats not wrong, you pay a lot of money for something rare like that to have that benefit, thats the ideal of an Investment, nothing wrong with that.

btw. dont fool yourself an think that any T2 BPO owners are scared that your insane posting abilities will change anything, some people just like posting or in this case trolling.
we found out already, that the most people ITT dont own a T2 BPO. So it is IF not a "T2 BPO owner vs inventors", it is a "successfull Inventors vs. bad Inventors" Lol

shar'ra phone home
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-05-06 01:54:46 UTC
T2 BPO's are unfair, and that's glorious. They absolutely make a lot more money than invention, and that's appropriate. Complaining about this is exactly like complaining that an officer and deadspace fit battleship out performs a T2 fit. Anybody who complains about T2 BPO's being unfair is a sore loser and deserves to be laughed at. It's almost as if they have no idea what game they're playing.

If they also insist that T2 BPO's are unfair because they make certain items unprofitable choices for invention then they're ignorant as well as sore losers. Now they deserve to be laughed at even more, because they're not only wrong, they also clearly lack the ability to question their first assumption and work out its accuracy on their own. They just go with the first thought that pops into their head and stick with it. As if careful critical assessment of new conclusions is somehow impossible.

If they then go on to participate in 20 pages of forum posts soundly debunking that myth yet remain insistent that T2 BPO's are directly responsible for miserable invention returns on specific items they're no longer ignorant, just plain ******* stupid.
Haulie Berry
#63 - 2012-05-06 02:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
ReiAnn wrote:
So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.

3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.

4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

So even with perfect skills, you still only have like a 50/50 most of the time on the high priced items like ships and it takes me a hell of a long TIME to get to this point, and that is if I am only producing one T2 item. The more T2 items I want to build, the more datacore skills and research agents I need, which means additional accounts.

T2PBO owners just have to have the manufactoring skills and resources.


You know how I know you're not an actual producer?


1. If you're even remotely serious about production of any kind, you're going to have a POS for the time modifiers alone.

2. You need almost the exact same skills to plug in the production job that you need to plug in the invention job. The encryption methods skill is really the only difference, and it's dirt cheap and has a negligible effect.

3. Actually, the base success chance constitutes the vast majority of the probability. 4/5 skills typically only adjust your expected cost per run by tens of thousands of isk over level 1 skills for most modules. My invention character's expected cost per run on adaptive invulns: 202000
A character with 0 skills: 254000

It eats into your profit a bit, especially for a module with a fairly thin margin to begin with, but by no means is it necessary to get 4s or 5s.


4/5. You need to what? That's adorable. Datacores are worth what they are worth. Their value - and therefor the cost of your invention jobs - is no different if you farm them yourself or if you buy them on the market. Even if you suffer from the datacores-I-farm-myself-are-free delusion, no real inventor could ever keep themselves in datacores.
ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
#64 - 2012-05-06 02:17:34 UTC
I don't have to be a producer to know just needing level 1 skills and POS is automatically going to add to the manufactoring cost regardless. Invention + Manufactoring = cost more than owning and using a researched T2BPO.






Haulie Berry wrote:
ReiAnn wrote:
So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.

3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.

4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

So even with perfect skills, you still only have like a 50/50 most of the time on the high priced items like ships and it takes me a hell of a long TIME to get to this point, and that is if I am only producing one T2 item. The more T2 items I want to build, the more datacore skills and research agents I need, which means additional accounts.

T2PBO owners just have to have the manufactoring skills and resources.


You know how I know you're not an actual producer?


1. If you're even remotely serious about production of any kind, you're going to have a POS for the time modifiers alone.

2. You need almost the exact same skills to plug in the production job that you need to plug in the invention job. The encryption methods skill is really the only difference, and it's dirt cheap and has a negligible effect.

3. Actually, the base success chance constitutes the vast majority of the probability. 4/5 skills typically only adjust your expected cost per run by tens of thousands of isk over level 1 skills for most modules. My invention character's expected cost per run on adaptive invulns: 202000
A character with 0 skills: 254000

It eats into your proffit a bit, especially for a module with a fairly thin margin to begin with, but by no means is it necessary to get 4s or 5s.


4/5. You need to what? That's adorable. Datacores are worth what they are worth. Their value - and therefor the cost of your invention jobs - is no different if you farm them yourself or if you buy them on the market. Even if you suffer from the datacores-I-farm-myself-are-free delusion, no real inventor could ever keep themselves in datacores.
Haulie Berry
#65 - 2012-05-06 02:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
I don't have to be a producer to know just needing level 1 skills and POS is automatically going to add to the manufactoring cost regardless. Invention + Manufactoring = cost more than owning and using a researched T2BPO.


Did you miss the part where I pointed out that you need the same skills to plug in the production job? That goes for invented BPCs as well as BPOs. If you want to build adaptive invulns, you are dropping 20 mil on quantum physics and hydromagnetic physics no matter how you are building them.

The same goes for the POS, which will, in fact, increase your net income by increasing your production rate. This, again, goes for BPOs as well as inventors.

That aside, they are wholly inconsequential costs. When you can churn out a few billion a week, a handful of 10m isk skillbooks and 100m a month in POS fuel is kind of a laughable expense.

Things you would know, if you actually did production...
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#66 - 2012-05-06 06:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Dinn
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.


Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one.
So until that happens there is a problem.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=278

or

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=279

Cool


And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE.


everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.




Now see there is the problem that not everyone can get the prints cause there are not enough prints around for every character in the game even if all the characters in the game would have isks.

So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#67 - 2012-05-06 12:04:07 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Now see there is the problem that not everyone can get the prints cause there are not enough prints around for every character in the game even if all the characters in the game would have isks.
So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix

If all the characters in the game would have enough ISK to buy all the existing prints at the current prices, what would happen would be that the prints will become even more expensive and even less worth buying for the sake of profits. That's precisely what happens to any other "collector's item" that only exists in a limited amount in EVE.
I don't hear you complaining about not having enough Golden Magnates or Imperial Apocalypses to go around for everybody in the game, or do I ?
And before you go "but you can't make profit with those", well, what do you know, you can't make a GOOD profit with T2 BPOs either unless you already have so much ISK that you have literally nothing else to use it for and it's just sitting there piling up uselessly. Almost anything else in EVE has a better RoI than T2 BPOs. They're collector's items with some benefits primarily, rather than proper industrial tools.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-05-06 14:52:48 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:

So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix


A lot of people in these threads keep complaining that somehow, a level of disparity between players keeps EVE from being a 'sandbox'. I'm sure they have no god damn clue what they mean.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-05-06 15:55:35 UTC
ReiAnn wrote:
So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.


Game doesn't "need" Navy Issue ships, so take them out. Game doesn't "need" dreds anymore, so take them out. Game doesn't "need" T1 Warp Core Stabs, so take them out. Let's just take everything out that one minority group of players wouldn't know how to use in the first place. It's just fair, no?

ReiAnn wrote:
People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.


Assuming BROADLY that all T2 BPO owners are working in unison, secretly, one item at a time, to affect the ENTIRE market of Eve Online, sure, let's go with that one.

ReiAnn wrote:
To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.


1. Wow. Just--- wow.
2. NPC slots are free frequently in low and NPC null. Your laziness is showing. Or perhaps your fear of leaving high, I can't tell which, but it's probably important because it's tainting your opinion here.

ReiAnn wrote:
2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.
3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.
4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.



Laziness reeks in this poster's opinion. So you're another than wants an Easy Button? Gotcha. You just invalidated your own opinion.

ReiAnn wrote:
5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.


I think I just spent time responding to another troll like "him". Good job. You got me. :)

The rest of your post just displays your ignorance (don't get mad, that's a valid word to describe what you're presented in your opinion here) about Industry in EveO. I'd recommend you start a new alt, join an Industrial corp, and learn how it works.

No Easy Buttons should ever exist in this game. It's not a game for people not willing to put the time and effort into it. You want fps, go to XBox.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-05-06 15:57:33 UTC
Salo Aldeland wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:

So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix


A lot of people in these threads keep complaining that somehow, a level of disparity between players keeps EVE from being a 'sandbox'. I'm sure they have no god damn clue what they mean.


This. I suspect that people come to Eve expecting Hello Kitty (honestly!), see how player demands have bent CCP in the past, and demand their own Easy Button. Disgusting.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#71 - 2012-05-06 23:21:03 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Salo Aldeland wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:

So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix


A lot of people in these threads keep complaining that somehow, a level of disparity between players keeps EVE from being a 'sandbox'. I'm sure they have no god damn clue what they mean.


This. I suspect that people come to Eve expecting Hello Kitty (honestly!), see how player demands have bent CCP in the past, and demand their own Easy Button. Disgusting.


I've played hello kitty online yet the devs there don't give out easy win buttons aka T2BPO. Hello kitty is a fully fledge E-sport with a diverse player driven universe something Eve Online could only dream of.

Hello Kitty Online is REAL!

Yet again I must stress that T2BPO is not the only bain of invention but it does make invention irrelevent in some production lines.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-05-06 23:55:11 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
...a fully fledge E-sport with a diverse player driven universe...


Those are two completely opposite, incompatible things. It's like having a very brightly lit yet completely dark place. The more you make a game like one, the less you make it like the other. If an E-sport is a bright room, EVE is the darkest place yet achieved by science. That's what makes it amazing, and that's what people who love EVE love about it. And when every now and then somebody stumbles in because they're maybe attracted to the idea of laser beams or warp drives or whatever other window dressing you care to name, squint in the dark and go, "Gee, maybe somebody could strike a match?" it seriously annoys the hell out of the guys who are here for the darkness, not the wrapper around it.

Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Yet again I must stress that T2BPO is not the only bain of invention but it does make invention irrelevent in some production lines.


FFS, in 'some production lines' INVENTION makes invention irrelevant. Even if you're 100% correct, so what? You're saying that inventors only have option A, which makes no money, where as BPO owners have option B, wihch makes a little bit of money. You completely ignore the fact that inventors and BPO owners alike both have option C, which makes a **** ton of money. If you're really angry that somebody's second worst move beats your worst move, then god damnit play a better move.
Haulie Berry
#73 - 2012-05-07 02:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Katja Faith wrote:
Salo Aldeland wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:

So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix


A lot of people in these threads keep complaining that somehow, a level of disparity between players keeps EVE from being a 'sandbox'. I'm sure they have no god damn clue what they mean.


This. I suspect that people come to Eve expecting Hello Kitty (honestly!), see how player demands have bent CCP in the past, and demand their own Easy Button. Disgusting.


I've played hello kitty online yet the devs there don't give out easy win buttons aka T2BPO. Hello kitty is a fully fledge E-sport with a diverse player driven universe something Eve Online could only dream of.

Hello Kitty Online is REAL!

Yet again I must stress that T2BPO is not the only bain of invention but it does make invention irrelevent in some production lines.


I repeat: Please name one item that I am currently locked out of as an inventor that would become an attractive option in the absence of T2 BPOs.

Seriously, it's not a rhetorical question. As an inherently greedy internet spaceship and module producer, I'm all about my own income so, if there is actually a compelling argument to be made that removing T2 BPOs, of which I own none, will somehow improve my bottom line, I would love to hear it.

By my own analysis, I've determined that it will not benefit me. You've yet to provide a single fact, figure, or statistic that shows otherwise, which leads me to believe that, more than anything else, this is a campaign not to improve your own position, but to simply **** on the net asset value of others.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#74 - 2012-05-07 06:01:28 UTC
This conversation is taking apic poportions again...

greedy BPO owners vs. poor inventors Twisted

It still seems that more people want to do something about this "tech 2 bpo problem" than let it just be as it is.

So how about some constructive posting what would be a nice solution and not the "¤"##¤ "!¤#% !"%¤ !"#¤ will lscrew me up" posts?

And while I have read these posts and others I have come to the conclusion that removing the prints would be silly so the idea what one of the devs had when invention came was to improve the me levels of copies is realy starting to sound a good solution.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#75 - 2012-05-07 06:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Morgan Dinn wrote:


greedy BPO owners vs. poor inventors Twisted



well akita etc already said that they dont own T2 BPO `s while kara and Brewlar (his alts included) mentioned that they are just traders and dont even invent stuff.

So it`s rather a " successfull inventors vs. bad Inventors" or if they all said the truth a "successfull Inventors vs. random traders who have nothing to do with this topic".

the real entertaining parts of these threads keep getting deleted (mostly when brewlar starts derailing again) so I recommend to ignore the next post starting with "Yet, again...weeeehh sniff sniff" and dont post.

shar'ra phone home
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#76 - 2012-05-07 21:28:39 UTC
The speech Brewlar Kuvakei, with its lack of argument with his accusations that are not based on anything concrete, with the generalization from a single case, with all its bad faith, with the stigma of a class of players according to their properties and how they have acquired, is a National Socialist speech (na-zi).

The Na-zi have installed this hate speech for years in Germany 30 years to prepare raffles and looting of Jewish property.

As a holder of T2 BPOs I am proud to be a Jew for Brewlar Kuvakei

The character "Brewlar Kuvakei" behaves like a Na-zi

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#77 - 2012-05-08 06:00:26 UTC
Lara Dantreb wrote:
The speech Brewlar Kuvakei, with its lack of argument with his accusations that are not based on anything concrete, with the generalization from a single case, with all its bad faith, with the stigma of a class of players according to their properties and how they have acquired, is a National Socialist speech (na-zi).

The Na-zi have installed this hate speech for years in Germany 30 years to prepare raffles and looting of Jewish property.

As a holder of T2 BPOs I am proud to be a Jew for Brewlar Kuvakei

The character "Brewlar Kuvakei" behaves like a Na-zi


You do know that if you use the "hitler card" you loose the depate out right? Twisted
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#78 - 2012-05-08 09:57:32 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
You do know that if you use the "****** card" you loose the depate out right? Twisted


So that there is a debate we need debaters, there is no debate, only a series of baseless charges.

As mentioned earlier, this has been debated to death for years, but when people do not want to hear the facts, it is good to show them what their methods are similar

Now tell me again we are the infamous T2 bpo holders and the inventors are the honest guys who are victims of our greed Smile

BTW today it's May, 8th, does that date meaningful to you?

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Jajas Helper
#79 - 2012-05-08 10:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jajas Helper
I'll drop this in:

Played this game for 3-4 years, gathered 30bil -> bought a T2 bpo and will recover that amount in 5-7 years + (Or more if ccp changes ship, modules or a general - that module is now useless and nobody buys it....)


I dont know why you think T2bpos are "unfair" if it takes that amount of investment other then you been jelly about hard work paying off for someone else.

That said: Yes i like it that i now have to do 30less inventions a day and have reduced some clickfest.... but i am broke on liquid isk ( considering my wallet before)....

Never forget T2BPO owners risk losing the value of their bpo on every ccp nerf / change in module performance.

But most of all, if you find them so unfair.. why the hell are you not taking advantage of them? Because if they are so OP, why dont you isk in on them? There are enough T2bpos sold on the forum and contracts to get yourself some nice advantage...

anyway, jelly haters gonne hate...

Inferno do _stuff _with _stuff _to imitate the _stuff _you could do faster with the old stuff

-stuff-
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#80 - 2012-05-08 12:13:18 UTC
Lara Dantreb wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
You do know that if you use the "****** card" you loose the depate out right? Twisted


So that there is a debate we need debaters, there is no debate, only a series of baseless charges.

As mentioned earlier, this has been debated to death for years, but when people do not want to hear the facts, it is good to show them what their methods are similar

Now tell me again we are the infamous T2 bpo holders and the inventors are the honest guys who are victims of our greed Smile

BTW today it's May, 8th, does that date meaningful to you?


no meaning what so ever on this current day.

And no I do not see the T2 bpo owners as bad people I see the game mechanics that are no right and I wanna do something to that.

Alse it seems that this matter is still ongoing cause everyone posts about it. So mayby CCP should look into it and say... ok this is what we will do and stand by it and not just ignore it.

And everyone wants to hear facts there are just not much facts here. Loads of asumbtions, pointing and other stuff.

One fact tough is that invention is not profitable enough on those modules which have bpo counterparts.