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No more learning implants!
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CAiNE999
The Hachimoto Corporation
#181 - 2012-05-05 19:22:27 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. This whole remove learning implants business is a poorly designed 0.0 whine.

I have NEVER heard anyone cite implants as the reason that they didn't go pvp. Even if you think that it should be less risky to lose implants, you should push for a reduced jumpclone timer or something instead.


So i expect to see you undock to defend your space with a full set of +5 impants against uncertain odds? Since you want to bring 0.0 up ill run with that.

You have 3 options

1) undock in said +5s and throw caution to the wind. add even more risk into the equation, including the cost of several hours/days of skill training unless you can afford replacements.

2) JC to a empty clone / lesser clone and lose SP/hour, for 24 hours and go fight.

3) Loggoffski/afk, que RL issues and keep your 24 hours of +5 implant learning time

All three are dumb, you should be able to undock and place your ship, mods and clone on the line. to fight for your space, we dont need another veil for people to hide behind. "oh but i cant JC for another 10 hours" being my favorite for said op/defense

I've known plenty of people to pick variants of 3, fake afk, go suddenly quiet, or just disappear. Sure there are other motives, but chancing your tasty implants doesnt help the matter.

But sure, go for 3 hour CD`s on JC. I'd take that equally.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2012-05-05 19:22:46 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
It takes 5.9 days to train up cybernetics 4 at 1800 sp an hour. It costs 40 million to buy a perception and willpower +4 implant which is a little over what you make doing the level 1 epic arc.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=10216
^ price proof.
There is no reason that anyone who is serious about EVE cannot spend 5.9 days in training and making 40 million isk to afford this. Attribute implants stay, the idea of removing them is one step closer to ruining the sandbox.


Its not that getting that 40 mill is difficult(although completing the entire arc as a newbie isn't a piece of **** either, everyone seems to need help with Dagan), its that once they have the implants, the risk level of engaging in pvp or exploring low and especially null and wormholes goes WAAAAY up. Then it goes down again a bit once they get jumpclones, but still not as much due to the 24 hour timer.

Same goes for average players in +4s, or veterans in +5s.
Dapud
#183 - 2012-05-05 19:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dapud
What if you could buy more expensive clones which had implant insurance.

For instance

Clone Grade Gamma

[ ] Insure Implants?

It would have to be a flat fee otherwise you could game the system obviously... maybe like 5m ISK?

Then when you die you wake up to a clone with the implants already installed.
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#184 - 2012-05-05 21:51:38 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
I don't see how jump clones helps with learning implants, they seem ****** for a new character wanting to get into eve.

If I have implants in a jump clone then I'm not using them to improve my learning rate, so I take my almost 1.5 mil SP self to 0.0 using my no implant clone so when exactly would I ever use the implant clone??

Only time I could see using it is when I take a break from playing the game aka go on holiday for 2 weeks in the summer? the rest of the time I'd be playing using the clone without implants, might as well never buy implants in that case.

In hindsight all the advise I read saying get implants asap seems to be terrible as it just makes me think sit in 'safer' highsec avoiding risk for x number of weeks/months/years so I can improve as quick as possible.


Well, if you're such a risk averse person that the fear of losing your implants will keep you from doing what you want to do, then yes... you should not use implants.

If you come around to it at some point I suggest you create a jump clone at some point and have a +5 learning clone for when you're in empire and a +3 learning clone to combat in. That's a pretty common approach.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#185 - 2012-05-05 22:06:00 UTC
To be fair, you only need two learning implants anyway and 3's and 4's are dirt cheap. 5's are still not much compared to the cost of high-end pvp ships anyway.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#186 - 2012-05-05 22:10:56 UTC
Are you guys serious!?!? Jump clones being the main reason NOT to go PvP cuz your in a +5 set? Rediculous!! AT BEST!!Roll

Clone 1 +5s
Clone 2 Specific +3s (Intel/mem or Percp/Will)
Clone 3 Other Specific +3s (Reverse of Clone 2)

Cost of PvP is one jump clone and 15mil MAX and youll still get over 60% of your training time. Thats a T2 fitted T1 cruiser cost to put at "risk".

Hardwirings? HA!! You incursioned with an alt get some cheap 2%s. Make yourself a set of those. Total cost to you?!? A whopping 10mil for 5 hardiwrings.


So thats 25mil MAX your putting at risk for PvP. Cost of a T2 frigate with fittings. If your too poor to afford that out there in the large isk printing null machine then your too poor and stupid to play Eve period. Stop whining HTFU!!


Go spend an hour ratting and youll have your ship and your clone for the next op. Go spend an hour running some anoms or plexs. Go spend an hour in a WH with your buddies. Go run incursions for an hour. Go run L4 missions for an hour. Hell go MINING for an hour. Or just buy plex and sell it on market.

Only people I see whining about this are null bears too CHEAP to buy implants. With all that nullbear isk Im surprised they dont hand OUT implants when you get podded by now like ship replacement funds.Roll

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
RedLion
State Constructions
#187 - 2012-05-05 22:11:22 UTC
Learning implants and high clone cost gotta go. this will help bring alot of new blood into the pvp scene!
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2012-05-05 22:18:51 UTC
Aron Croup wrote:

Well, if you're such a risk averse person


It's not the risk not overly fussed about that but I do have 'issues' regarding trying to maintain the best sp/hour possible.

I'm very ocd about certain things, think I'll save and get myself a character that can do most of what I want to do and that way not worry about the idea of training.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2012-05-05 23:58:46 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat

so what do you think my idea then?

jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2012-05-06 00:14:26 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat

so what do you think my idea then?

jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped?



At face value I like it but couldn't it be exploited? ,

@ your home base you jump into cheap clone using that low cool down, set your medical station to your destination and pod kill yourself and then switch to a expensive clone using that low cool down again and you just do the same to return.

You completely bypass timers to jump around almost at will.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#191 - 2012-05-06 00:22:54 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
no increase jump clone timers not reduce them people shouldn't be able to bounce all over eve at the drop of a hat

so what do you think my idea then?

jump clone cooldown based on distance jumped?



At face value I like it but couldn't it be exploited? ,

@ your home base you jump into cheap clone using that low cool down, set your medical station to your destination and pod kill yourself and then switch to a expensive clone using that low cool down again and you just do the same to return.

You completely bypass timers to jump around almost at will.

Clever.

Maybe clone relocation contracts should cost based on distance between current and new locations..

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#192 - 2012-05-06 01:03:28 UTC
I still think the best solution would be to make pods indestructible save for self--destruct, yet ship-loss causes random implant damage or loss (power surges in the conduits, whatever).

This way, implant loss becomes a way of life for people who lose ships, but it's not a "lose it all" garuntee prospect that contributes to risk aversion.

The truly risk averse, heads full of implants, won't even bother to fly any more, or will run the baddest ships in the lowest missions, but hey some people like slamming their willies in the door too.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#193 - 2012-05-06 01:41:39 UTC
Burn the implants!, Burn ALL THE IMPLANTS!!

Now with 100% less Troll.
Ryshar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-05-06 23:10:48 UTC
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way implants work, or that death shouldn't be scary. I just don't like learning implants, they only exist for your character's skill queues. They don't provide any gameplay advantage, they just let you train a little faster and give you excuses to not try parts of the game.

For new players, this is not a good thing; they're much more likely to stick around if they can try a lot of things up front and find the part of the game that they like. Would it be that bad if everyone just had +3 base stats and these specific implants didn't exist anymore?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-05-06 23:58:07 UTC
I saw a thread recently related to this, but with a different twist

Remove attribute implants, but leave the slots. Now those slots could be used to cross fit the hardwire implants into these slots.

Basically
1 and 6 would share the same hardwire implants
2 and 7
3 and 8
4 and 9
5 and 10

The only limitations is that you would not be allowed to fit 2 implants effecting the same attributes.

So no duel 5% heavy missile implants on 2 and 7, but you could fit one with a missile buff and the other with a shield buff or something like this.

There are several of available implants for the 6-10 slots, so there would be no need to create new implants for these slots.

This would allow players to still have the risk vs reward that they care so much about, but all the reward would be directly related to the ships you fly.


This would also allow players to cross fit, meaning they could fit some modules related to mining and combat.


As far as pirate implants, they could be redesigned. They would still only be able to fit in slots 1-5. However, now, they would give you a 1-2% bonus to a hardwire, and +1 to attributes. This would probably help to make pirate implants much more popular.

They would still have the restriction of not being able to fit a module effecting the same stats that they do.

Perhaps the amount of attribute bonus they receive would need to be thought out more than what I suggest, but regardless, if they gave the +1 attribute on top of having the +5 attributes you would now be getting standard, they would become much more wanted.


However, there are many players in Eve who have no problem going without hardwire implants in order to pvp, but are much less likely to give up their attribute implants in order to pvp because attribute implants feel more like a MUST in Eve rather than the perk CCP originally meant for them to be.
Serith Isagar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2012-05-07 04:30:57 UTC
As a newbie I can totally agree that learning implants should be removed. Especially for newbies who want to PVP, learning implants are a big factor in favor of not playing until a character is trained up more. The cost of these implants is way too high to be risked by a newbie trying to learn PVP or joining RVB. I can't see where learning implants actually add anything to the game, all they really accomplish is getting in the way of players taking risks - PVP is expensive enough to begin with that it doesn't need another "cost" added in.

I don't really see going without learning implants as much of an option for newbies either given the long training times once you set your aims beyond being a "tackler in a frigate".
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#197 - 2012-05-07 05:31:01 UTC
Okay so in ALL the other threads its all about MOAR RISK!!!! NOT ENOUGH RISK!!!! RISKLESS!!! So now that you HAVE risk due to getting podded with implants in and having a REAL loss you suddenly want it changed to LESS risk?!?!Roll

Nullbear whine!! Either you want MOAR risk or you want LESS risk. Pick one.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#198 - 2012-05-07 06:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
Serith Isagar wrote:
As a newbie I can totally agree that learning implants should be removed. Especially for newbies who want to PVP, learning implants are a big factor in favor of not playing until a character is trained up more. The cost of these implants is way too high to be risked by a newbie trying to learn PVP or joining RVB. I can't see where learning implants actually add anything to the game, all they really accomplish is getting in the way of players taking risks - PVP is expensive enough to begin with that it doesn't need another "cost" added in.

I don't really see going without learning implants as much of an option for newbies either given the long training times once you set your aims beyond being a "tackler in a frigate".



unless you are gtc tp plex sales funding the isk.....chances are real good you have a nice cycle of ratting/missioning nights mixed with pvp nights. Get clean jump clone, run this on pvp nights. Go back in the +x implant clone on pve nights.


System works like a charm. I did this when I went to 0.0 2-3 months into the game on the combat char. OPs and roams picked up oin weekends, friday night I logged in, jumped on clean clone and killed or be killed till sunday. Monday hop back into the good clone, and try to not get blown up Mon-thurs. If that happened....didn't want those implants anyway.


Pvp is something learned by doing. 2 nights of good quality and hopefully fun pvp in a clean clone will do you better in the long than having that extra skill level 2 days faster. My empire break has lasted long than planned....many ships skillwise I am damn good. Recon 5...got it. Minutes flown in recons, 0. I have no delusions about my actual ability to fly them.

get your flight time in what you can. Skill level 5 fixes many things, don't fix inexperence flying ships or being an idiot (I put myself in the idiot category with some wtf I am terribad loses recently). Actaully flying your ships, learning from f ups (yours or others) does however.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-05-07 15:10:07 UTC
Ryshar wrote:
PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.


FYI, this is wrong, PvP is an ISK faucet anytime someone gets even the basic insurance payout.

Its a resource/mineral/ship/module sink, and reduces supply of ships/creates more demand, which drives the ISK price up.
ISK faucets also drive the ISK prices up (more ISK, same supply)

To combat inflation, you want ISK sinks and resource/mineral/ship/module faucets (such as lvl 4's being a modules/mineral faucet)

PvP helps drive inflation. If ships almsot never got drestroyed, there would be a bunch of them, massive surpluses of ships, prices would be low due to no demand (unless people just wants to stock up 100 of each ship for the heck of it), there'd be almost 0 point to the mining and manufacturing profession (maybe ice mining for running POS's and jump fuel, POS's for making T2 ammo and bases of operation for doing PvE, such as WH), everyone would fly T3s or pirate faction ships, with officer/deadspace/faction fits

It would also be pretty boring. Even if you don't engage in PvP, knowing there are people out there that may engage you regardless, adds atmosphere to the game.
Quade Warren
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-05-07 16:10:48 UTC
Not sure if this has been posted or not, but didn't want to read 10 pages.

Make the learning attributes a natural function of cloning technology. The higher the quality the clone, but the better the attribute enhancement and the more expensive the clone is.

Keep the slots for the different sets, just remove the attribute bonus.

You maintain your SP learned no matter what you're doing, there is still an isk sink and you still have the opportunity to use that expensive Slave set.

Any thoughts?