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Why do the Abaddon and Nightmare have such a weak cap?
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-05-05 09:40:48 UTC
The cap on the apocalypse is vastly superior to the nightmare and the Abaddon... why?

People criticize the tier system, but it is the system in place, and it seems odd we have this abberation of a tier 2 ship having significantly better stats to a tier 3 or pirate faction ship.

Yes, I know the Abaddon has no cap bonus, and is "meant" to have more problems with cap, but the -50% (at lvl 5) of the Apoc is enough that the Abaddon could have the same capacitor as the Apoc, and still have significant cap drawbacks.

As to the Nightmare... Why why why? Its a billion+ isk ship that is even more cap hungry than the Apoc why does it have a weaker cap than a tier II ship?
Nakkano
Microsoft Excel Club
#2 - 2012-05-05 10:13:31 UTC
Well lets take a look.

Loading up the ships in EFT here's the capacitor numbers

Abaddon - 6375 - 1250s
Apocalypse - 7500 - 1154s
Nightmare - 6950 - 1154s

-I don't know why abbadon has the lowest cap. Really should compare all tier battleships of each race and see if there are other oddities.

-The abaddon has more structure, armor, and shield than the apoc.


Thoughts from a balance perspective:

The abaddon is superior to the Apoc in a fleet DPS role with it's extra damage and tanking bonus, and slightly larger grid it can fit 8 tachyons a little easier. So basically, it's still the 'best' obviously, lowest cap or not.

As for the nightmare, again who knows. However I think the cap number is less important for the nightmare.
Since it's a shield boat, it's usually going to be running off Cap Booster charges, since the drain from an active tank plus the lasers is overwhelming. If you don't use cap booster on a nightmare, then you either have to gimp your tracking & damage projection, or risk a paper thin tank.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#3 - 2012-05-05 10:41:46 UTC
Originally the Apoc's bonuses were to laser cap usage and a 25% bonus to capacitor capacity.

The Abaddon and Nightmare's cap are more or less appropriate to the unbonused cap.

When the Apoc gained its range bonus the cap capacity bonus was subsumed into the basic stats of the ship. The Hyperion, which was given a very large capacitor to allow it to microwarp for long periods without excessively boosting its tank, provided an inspiration for the retention.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-05-05 10:58:36 UTC
Well... I don't cap boost my nightmare, I buffer tank it - its what you'd do if you were insane/rich enough to use it in fleet combat, and its what you do in incursions.
Buffer tanks are also much better protection against gank than active tank.
Its also what I do when I dual box, and have my alt in a rattler take all the aggro....
But it still has trouble just firing its darn lasers.

Don't people often fit arty to abaddons?
IMO, thats when you know there is a problem...


If your history of the Apoc bonuses is right, its essentially a 3 bonus ship... like a Pirate BS...
illirdor
Upper Class Goat
#5 - 2012-05-05 11:15:42 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:


Don't people often fit arty to abaddons?
IMO, thats when you know there is a problem...



uhm alpha ???.....

Soooo this is my sig.... 
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-05 11:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Nakkano wrote:
As for the nightmare, again who knows. However I think the cap number is less important for the nightmare.
Since it's a shield boat, it's usually going to be running off Cap Booster charges, since the drain from an active tank plus the lasers is overwhelming. If you don't use cap booster on a nightmare, then you either have to gimp your tracking & damage projection, or risk a paper thin tank.


Nightmare doesn't have paper thin tank. DPS is part of your tank. Nightmare has very good range and tracking at that range. Cap booster is a good module in active shield tanked ship though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBnCpS6oFw

Verity Sovereign wrote:
Well... I don't cap boost my nightmare, I buffer tank it - its what you'd do if you were insane/rich enough to use it in fleet combat, and its what you do in incursions.


Nightmare can run its guns and hardeners forever even without cap boosters. So I don't see where you got that from.
In incursions you have logis anyways. Shield booster is the module that drains cap in Nightmare.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-05-05 12:09:35 UTC
Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-05 12:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight.


They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#9 - 2012-05-05 12:57:20 UTC
Nightmare is also half caldari boat, so it has a caldari crapacitor
SpaceSquirrels
#10 - 2012-05-05 13:22:39 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight.


They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.


You sure those aren't lul I dunno how to read bonuses fits? Why fit a harby arty when you could do the same to a Cane...that gets bonuses and can armor tank near the same?
ELECTR0FREAK
#11 - 2012-05-05 13:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK
I'd like to direct this thread's attention to the upcoming ship balance where Amarr battleships have been specifically cited in the argument that there's often little reason to use one ship over another.

The Abbadon's bonuses and stats make it an excellent ship when fitted for tank or gank. It's only real con is it's cap. If it didn't have this con, there really would be almost no reason to fly the other Amarr battleships.

As is, with decent cap skills and careful management, it's not far from the other battleships in overall performance (tank or gank) and manages to do both well enough together to make it worth flying over the Apoc and the Arma most of the time. This is exactly why CCP is going to be re-evaluating the ships and trying to push them into more defined, specific roles.

Which, I'm sure, will result in many tears... internet spaceships are serious business.

Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#12 - 2012-05-05 14:24:14 UTC
Pretty sure the issue here is not the cap on any given ship (though the Apoc does seem unreasonably strong) but rather that Tachs are just huge cap suckers. This of course is by design, so I'm not sure I really see the problem. Is anyone really hitting cap problems with any other guns on the NM/Abbadon? Because I certainly haven't.

Furthermore, it's specifically T2 tachs, not even meta 4 or faction guns. Given the many, many other options out there and the advantages of T2 weapons, I just don't see a problem.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-05-05 17:19:06 UTC
My guess is that you are using a rig to decrease cap use.

My cap can't handle firing 4x T2 pulse with faction multi (3x heat sinks boosting ROF), 2x tracking computer IIs, and 4 hardeners - well it can last a few minutes, but thats it, a shield booster kills it pretty fast.

I've got the +5% cap capacity implant, the -5% cap recharge time implant, Energy systems operation 5, energy management 4, and controlled bursts 4.
I don't think taking those skills to lvl 5 is going to result in a huge change (it was next on my list, until I found out about the upcoming BC and destroyer skill changes, and now I'm getting those to lvl 5, and then probably my alts on the same account to lvl 5 if I have time)
Deep Navigation
Spack Force 5
#14 - 2012-05-05 17:40:31 UTC
By the time you're supposed to be in an Abbadon you should have maxed out capacitor support skills. Controlled Bursts, Energy Management, Energy Systems Operation and Large Energy Weapon to level 5 make a big difference.

Key skills for the Amarr pilot.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#15 - 2012-05-05 18:04:08 UTC
There is no issue with cap on the Nightmare. You can either set it up to permarun a deadspace large shield booster (with plenty of space left over for damage mods and tracking), or you can use a cap booster. Either way, it's just fine - even with T2 Tachs.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-05-05 19:08:14 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.


lmao
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-05-05 19:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.


lmao


650s with Quake: 2233 at optimal
Optimal: 6,04 km
3x Gyro II, 1x projectile collision

Heavy Pulses with Conflag: 1994 at optimal
Optimal 7,5 km
3x HS II, 1x energy collision

Heavy Beams with Gleam: 1812 at optimal
Optimal 7,5 km
3x HS II, 1x energy collision

Pulses/beams do hilarious amount of dps compared to 650s though.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-05-06 13:56:32 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
The cap on the apocalypse is vastly superior to the nightmare and the Abaddon... why?


Abaddon neither Nightmare enjoy a bonus to energy turret capacitor use. That is why the cap feels weak, for the most part.

They say it's by design and working as intended. Your call is very important to us etc.

Slap an Apoc's capacitor on all laser BS or go home, please.

It knows what you think.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-05-06 14:21:19 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Abaddon neither Nightmare enjoy a bonus to energy turret capacitor use. That is why the cap feels weak, for the most part.


Nightmare's role bonus essentially acts the same as the Apoc's cap use bonus. Four turrets worth of cap for eight turrets* worth of damage.

*Actually more, because of the Caldari BS bonus being more damage.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#20 - 2012-05-06 14:25:31 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Nightmare can run its guns and hardeners forever even without cap boosters. So I don't see where you got that from.


Completely untrue, my mission Nightmare with T2 Tachyons can't run it's guns/hardeners/tcs stable and that is WITH perfect skills AND 1 T2 Discharge Elutriation and 2 T1 Semiconductor Memory Cells.

Also, Apoc has better cap before bonuses for those guy talking about the cap bonus, it has better cap BEFORE bonuses.
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