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ZOMG Kitsune
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#1 - 2012-05-05 00:14:34 UTC
So there I was, sitting around in my Megathron when a blob arrives sporting a Kitsune. Now, I have a healthy respect (hate?) for Falcons/Rooks, but I thought "all EAS are garbage, the Kitsune can't be that bad". Big mistake. Who knew it has 80% of the jam strength of a Falcon?

So yeah, me (solo) vs. blob w/ Kitsune = dead. But only because I was permajammed and never once had the opportunity to lock anyone. At all. Ever.

Soooo disappointing.

All of the other EAS are complete garbage. Why is the Kitsune so good in comparison? Do the other EAS need to be buffed? Is ECM simply overpowered and too good? I keep trying to find a situation where a frig would be justified permajamming a BS and I can't. Can you?

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Perihelion Olenard
#2 - 2012-05-05 00:28:18 UTC
The way I see it, either you're completely jammed or you're not. The only thing that varies is the chance and not the degree. That's why ECM is good.
Kumi Mashiba
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-05-05 00:30:17 UTC
Kitsunes have no tank. Pop it in one hit.

Plus they have rooms for only 4 jammers.

Summary: ECCM, set drones on kitsune, wreck fleet. Took on a 4x destroyer, incursus, + kitsune fleet the other day 1v6 in a harbinger doing just this (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13247109 , hound unaffiliated with either party).

No, kitsune are not overpowered. At all. They must be flown very carefully. And, like all other ships in eve, there is a counter tactic.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-05-05 00:35:19 UTC
kitsunes are very frail, but they can wreck havoc when paired with a fast gang.


and in reply to your question about EAF's, besides kitsune only the sentinel is worth mentioning. solo boat with good quality.

Keres and Hyena aren't worth your time.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#5 - 2012-05-05 00:53:27 UTC
Kumi Mashiba wrote:
Kitsunes have no tank. Pop it in one hit.

Plus they have rooms for only 4 jammers.

Summary: ECCM, set drones on kitsune, wreck fleet. Took on a 4x destroyer, incursus, + kitsune fleet the other day 1v6 in a harbinger doing just this (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13247109 , hound unaffiliated with either party).

No, kitsune are not overpowered. At all. They must be flown very carefully. And, like all other ships in eve, there is a counter tactic.


No extra mid to devote to an ECCM. And I have yet to fit an ECCM and have it keep me from being jammed.

Second, I never had a chance to lock the Kitsune, as I was in a BS. Third, the Kitsune is able to operate outside of my standard drone control range, hence no auto aggro by my Warrior IIs. Fourth, the issue here is frig vs. T2 recon jam strength effectiveness, and overall ECM effectiveness in general.

Fun fact: due to the extremely long cycle time of ECM, they can be overheated for an entire fight (2-3 minutes at least) without burning out, further increasing their peak jam strength. It's ridiculous.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-05 01:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
EAS are actually a very bad idea.
They will either be underpowered or overpowered, very very hard to be balanced.

Why do frigates need an EWAR platform? Frigate swarms are not so common as to require an EWAR frig. Plus if they see one, they just run, so there is no point to it.

And why does EWAR need a frigate class? It either ends up too weak to affect larger ships and therefore useless. Or if its EWAR is strong enough to affect larger ships, it is OP because on top of the disabling effect of EWAR it has sig tanking which makes it untouchable.

It's a white elephant class that is either junk or so OP it wrecks the game.

Just remove it, refund the SP and focus on cruiser/BS size EWAR.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#7 - 2012-05-05 01:50:02 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
EAS are actually a very bad idea.
They will either be underpowered or overpowered, very very hard to be balanced.

Why do frigates need an EWAR platform? Frigate swarms are not so common as to require an EWAR frig. Plus if they see one, they just run, so there is no point to it.

And why does EWAR need a frigate class? It either ends up too weak to affect larger ships and therefore useless. Or if its EWAR is strong enough to affect larger ships, it is OP because on top of the disabling effect of EWAR it has sig tanking which makes it untouchable.

It's a white elephant class that is either junk or so OP it wrecks the game.

Just remove it, refund the SP and focus on cruiser/BS size EWAR.


I think that if the other three were buffed slightly, and ECM nerfed down a little bit (the Kitsune's bonuses aren't over the top, ECM is just too good) then I think they would be fine. When was the last time you saw a solo Keres kill? I'm thinking never.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#8 - 2012-05-05 02:14:06 UTC
well a griffon is better than a kisune in meany ways so ya not that op. I also don't know how it was locking you further than your drone control range. and lastly they got lucky even with skills like mine a battle ship locked out for more than a cycle is rather lucky with the jam strenght they had (as if he was locking you at over 50-69k he had to have rigs/lows fit to lock range and not ECM str).
If you were soloing in a BS you had to know that that any gang with more than 3 people may have an answer for ya with in there fits, what if it would have been a sentinel kitting and nueting you out? or what if they all had damps? would that make thos things op? I have lost every kitsune i have flown there one of the worse ewar frigs there only saving grace is the fact that they ECM, there horble fitting and short lock range with only 2 rigs is a joke.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#9 - 2012-05-05 02:27:18 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
well a griffon is better than a kisune in meany ways so ya not that op. I also don't know how it was locking you further than your drone control range. and lastly they got lucky even with skills like mine a battle ship locked out for more than a cycle is rather lucky with the jam strenght they had (as if he was locking you at over 50-69k he had to have rigs/lows fit to lock range and not ECM str).
If you were soloing in a BS you had to know that that any gang with more than 3 people may have an answer for ya with in there fits, what if it would have been a sentinel kitting and nueting you out? or what if they all had damps? would that make thos things op? I have lost every kitsune i have flown there one of the worse ewar frigs there only saving grace is the fact that they ECM, there horble fitting and short lock range with only 2 rigs is a joke.


Assuming a drone control range of 45km, a Kitsune's base lock range, without any other bonuses, and all skills at 5, is 52.5km. A Hypnos Multispec with all skills at 5 has an optimal of 53km. That is just under 10km outside of drone range.

If it weren't for the Kitsune, I could have killed *every single ship* in the enemy gang. Sure, it was a gang of 12+, but nothing I couldn't handle. The only issue was that I was sitting there helpless, unable to lock ANYTHING, for the duration of the 'fight'.

A Sentinel neuting me? At least I can get my drones on it. Someone damping me? At least I would be able to lock the guys orbiting me at 1km.

The Kitsune has 80% of the jamming strength of a Falcon, with just slightly better optimal, and five (!!!) mid slots. Damps have a stacking penalty. Why not ECM?

ECM is still too powerful, the chance to jam is too high, and the countermeasures are still too ineffective to be considered worthwhile. If I fit an ECCM module or rig I expect to be virtually jam proof when attacked by multiple ECM ships. Currently that isn't the case, and additionally, if you buff ECCM to the point that it would work it ruins the balance for probing out ships.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#10 - 2012-05-05 02:50:26 UTC
I think I have the solution: Active ECCM.

5 second cycle time, uses cap, has a % chance to permanently damage/offline the ECM modules of any ship currently jamming the ship running the active ECCM. One ECCM module doesn't get a chance to damage one module per ship, but ALL the modules currently activated by any ship currently activating those modules upon the target ship, whether they're actually jamming the target ship or not.

The mechanic would borrow from the current heat mechanic with respect to it's capability to damage modules. Keep running the ECCM and if you have ECM ships continue to jam the target ship, the ECM modules will continue to be damaged/burnt out until none remain. The effect of the ECCM module should be great enough that within 60 seconds of employment it should be able to completely burn out every single ECM module fit to a Falcon.

Actually, while writing this, I just figured out the rate of damage: 60 seconds in a minute, 5 second cycle time, 12 cycles per minute. Each cycle does 10% damage to any active module. Each module is destroyed in less than 60 seconds if run continuously against the target running ECCM. Run all your ECM vs. a single target and you will quickly destroy your entire array. Use a few and possibly lose your jam and you might have a few remaining for an extended fight.

Just to clarify: if you have 5x Falcons all placing 6x ECM modules on your ship and you're running a single ECCM, all 30 ECM modules would be destroyed inside of 60 seconds.

ECM modules would be able to be repaired just like current mechanics. Completely destroyed ECM modules would not be able to be repaired until docked.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

ACE81
Sacred Sacrifice
Absolute Will
#11 - 2012-05-05 03:17:27 UTC
Hmm Ewar could be made more fun if it only broke locks no jamming timer with reduced cycle times to make up for no more jamming timer. then the only penalty would be how long it would take to reacquire a lock to fire.

Just my 2 isk
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#12 - 2012-05-05 07:12:50 UTC
ACE81 wrote:
Hmm Ewar could be made more fun if it only broke locks no jamming timer with reduced cycle times to make up for no more jamming timer. then the only penalty would be how long it would take to reacquire a lock to fire.

Just my 2 isk


Completely agree. Also it would have a natural scaling as for bigger size vessels it takes longer to reaquire the lock. Also it might bring back scan resolution damps as a part of EWAR combo.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-05-05 07:37:55 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

If it weren't for the Kitsune, I could have killed *every single ship* in the enemy gang. Sure, it was a gang of 12+, but nothing I couldn't handle. The only issue was that I was sitting there helpless, unable to lock ANYTHING, for the duration of the 'fight'.



Butthurt and overbloated supermanego. Why do you think they brought the kitsune in the first place ? thinking a counter for your offer to the field of battle must be overpowered too.

You got outplayed and thurally owned ... deal with it.
Zdyszana Sierotka
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-05-05 08:49:49 UTC
ecm is a bit too op compared to other racial ewar
you should know eccm is your friend...
Sup B1tches
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-05-05 09:26:22 UTC
Cedo Nulli wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

If it weren't for the Kitsune, I could have killed *every single ship* in the enemy gang. Sure, it was a gang of 12+, but nothing I couldn't handle. The only issue was that I was sitting there helpless, unable to lock ANYTHING, for the duration of the 'fight'.



Butthurt and overbloated supermanego. Why do you think they brought the kitsune in the first place ? thinking a counter for your offer to the field of battle must be overpowered too.

You got outplayed and thurally owned ... deal with it.


You possess bad English.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#16 - 2012-05-05 10:17:27 UTC
The kitsune and the sentinel are only good because they are the only 2 of the 4 EAS that have a REAL strength bonuses.

They have no tank, no DPS and are designed to only use the EW of their race. getting gang-banged by a group of people then whining on the forums aside, i'm glad this happened.
Nakkano
Microsoft Excel Club
#17 - 2012-05-05 10:18:37 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:


No extra mid to devote to an ECCM. And I have yet to fit an ECCM and have it keep me from being jammed.


This is really just a common frustration in regards to ECM in general that I sympathize with. If you fly solo this is the kind of thing that is infuriating. Yes you expect to lose fights, but being able to do nothing completely sucks.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-05-05 11:38:47 UTC
since this is turning into yet another "NERF ECM" thread, I'll leave this here...

Grimpak wrote:
Dhuras wrote:
Not really, a single falcon can cripple entire mid size gangs, no other EWAR ship can do that, it is incredibly unbalanced. (Don't think im just bitching because I am on the losing side of ECM, I a a falcon pilot myself.



but that's the thing.

ECM is, like all ewar, a force multiplier. A force multiplier that actually has a hard ceiling on effectiveness.

the issue here however is that, in that concept, it works fine, it's balanced, and any more changes you give to ECM itself it will upset the balance, most likely into total uselessness. Issue here is the very concept of ECM, together with eve's own pvp dynamics, being unbalanced.
ECM should've been a tool for smaller, more balanced gangs to be able to go toe to toe against bigger, unidimensional gangs, and in that, it works.
It also works excellently as a tie-breaker between equally-numbered and equally outfitted forces.
However, when you apply said force multiplier mechanics to a bigger, also balanced gang, it blows stuff out of the water, while applying a mechanic that is simply "fun denial". And here lies the crux of the problem, since the jamming probability is based in an RNG vs sensor str mechanic.

nerfing/boosting said sensor str variable directly would either make jamming too useless, or inconsequential. Boosting ship's sensor str indirectly (boosting ECCM) could also nerf ECM too harshly if overdone, or won't do anything at all, if just a slight nudge.

which means that you either nerf ECM indirectly (by providing a valuable counter to it), or you do a complete overhaul to the ECM system.
Then again, said options aren't good either, because the only worthwhile counter-module you can come up with for this job is damps, that are in a bit of a sorry state atm, but can become overpowered again due to their lack of RNG mechanics inside their optimals in addition to over-dampening effect that occurred back before they were nerfed (put enough dampeners on anything, including capital ships, and it works as good as a 100% effective jammer), and said overhaul can be too time-consuming for little to no practical changes in gameplay.



in sum, ECM can't be balanced further without breaking it or throwing considerable devpower at it, more than it can be useful.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-05-05 12:06:34 UTC
Kitsune is a dedicated jamming frig. You got jammed. Happens. Problem is not the Ship.
ELECTR0FREAK
#20 - 2012-05-05 13:43:51 UTC
A battleship with large weapons is pretty much going to be screwed against any frigate blob if they're intelligent enough to kill your drones.

Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula.
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