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No more learning implants!
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MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-05-04 20:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Adria Origin wrote:
Geoscape wrote:
"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"

Get rid of learning implants.


Or the timer. I don't really think removing the timer completely is a good idea, but at a minimum CCP needs to drop it to 12 hours.

My suggestion is CCP needs to find out the amount of time the average person plays per day. I mean really plays, not sits afk in a station. I assume it's going to be around 4-6 hours. Whatever that amount of time is, that should be the length of the JC timer. But that is a thread all its own.


also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
#42 - 2012-05-04 20:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Adria Origin
MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.

You clearly missed my first reply.


Adria Origin wrote:
There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP.

Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free.

I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies.

Oh and no one makes you have implants.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-05-04 21:04:03 UTC
Adria Origin wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.

You clearly missed my first reply.


Adria Origin wrote:
There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP.

Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free.

I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies.

Oh and no one makes you have implants.


yeah because that level of complexity is something new players will figure out.

Eve has a lot of "hidden features" and right cick menus and things that are hard to understand. A lot of these add a level of skill to playing eve. It's like learning how to use maya more than a video game.

I've been here for 7 years so I KNOW how to jump clone, but I do wish it on others. Everyone should get one free jump clone without having to go through corps or backwards system. Anything that requires you to tab out of the game to go check a forum needs to get taken out of eve.


When you start playing eve online, creating a jump clone should be part of the tutorial.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
#44 - 2012-05-04 21:24:34 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:

yeah because that level of complexity is something new players will figure out.

Eve has a lot of "hidden features" and right cick menus and things that are hard to understand. A lot of these add a level of skill to playing eve. It's like learning how to use maya more than a video game.

I've been here for 7 years so I KNOW how to jump clone, but I do wish it on others. Everyone should get one free jump clone without having to go through corps or backwards system. Anything that requires you to tab out of the game to go check a forum needs to get taken out of eve.


When you start playing eve online, creating a jump clone should be part of the tutorial.

Why are you leaving eve to go to the forum. IGB ftw.

And yeah a free JC at the start would be beneficial. Start with the skill at level 1 and 1 free JC. I'm for that definitely. Would make training alts easier too.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-05-04 21:31:03 UTC
Read OP. Speed read thread.

Death has to have meaning. Implants, especially specific sets add meaning to PVP. Losing snakes in a deadspace fit faction ship because of a tactical error makes players sweat. Realising that you are in your +5s in the middle of fight after you have just invested all your liquid isk into speculation really does add to this game.

In regards to new players I think the tutorial introduces them to implants rather succinctly. While I started playing before the introduction of the tutorial, I run a new alt through the tutorial each patch to see how it has developed. If I was a new player, the discovery of implants would not put me off but give me a glimpse of increasing depth the game has.

That segways nicely into my third point, Eve is a deep deep game. By simplifying the game to enhance the "new player experience" CCP run the risk of removing the mystery and depth the game has. The game has grown and prospered over 9 years - games that give everything up front and allow players to be an expert after 6 months are either called WOW or don't last beyond 3 years.
Josef Djugashvilis
#46 - 2012-05-04 21:34:45 UTC
As much as I like using implants to speed up my training, (currently 2580 sp per hour) they do put some folk off getting more involved in pvp, so I would support their removal from the game.

Andski put the case well in his thread.


This is not a signature.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#47 - 2012-05-04 22:09:37 UTC
A way to meet in the middle with this issue, just make (learning)implants degrade after so many deaths. Still have the risk of losing them if you die a lot. but at the same time its not a single death and 500m gone in implants alone.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Ursula Thrace
Dreamland Augmented Consortium
#48 - 2012-05-04 22:57:30 UTC
agree with OP. especially, that last paragraph.

eve online original intro
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-05-04 23:04:37 UTC
Ryshar wrote:
PvP is an ISK sink

Completely incorrect, it's actually the opposite, but I agree with your post.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-04 23:16:42 UTC
No just don't use them if you don't want too.

I have yet to use +5 in any of my characters I use +3' cause they are cheap and easy to replace.

Saying your not going to PvP because of your implants is just an excuse.

Especially for a high-sec mission runner who will have access to jump clones.
Or a 0.0 dweller who will have jump clones.

Getting rid of implants will serve no purpose cause those who don't want to PvP will just find another excuse.

Besides why would you want to reduce your choices in game ?

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-05-04 23:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
I can tell you that the learning implants can get new EVE players into a bad place in game. It happened to me and several people that I know. The cycle goes like this:


1. Start playing eve - learning, reading, tutorials, holy crap this is cool, what a deep game, etc
2. Hey I finished some skills and now I can fly a bigger, cooler ship! Sweet!
3. I wonder if I can train these skills faster so I can fly more even cooler ships?
4. Attribute implants! Perfect! ... and expesive
5. Grind ... Grind ... Grind
6. Woohoo implants! Evemon says this is gonna save so much time.
7. PVP? And loose the implants I spent all that time grinding for? No way!
8. Hmmm ... jump clones you say? Yes that's pefect then I can try pvp without loosing my implants!
8. I need to get my standings to what?
9. Grind missions
10. Grind missions
11. Grind missions
12. Grind missions
13. This game is so boring, **** this.


And that is why I quit EVE the first time I tried it. Same for some friends ... because of the damn jump clone standings grind. I came back; they haven't yet. Part of the reason I came back is because I learned about the Estel Arador corp and the shortcut to jump clones. Not sure if that service was around when I quit the first time but I know I hadn't heard of it.


I guess I would say that maybe the issue is more with jump clones than it is with learning implants.

I don't think any of it is an issue for veteran players ... but they can really get a newbie off the track of having fun at the beginning.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#52 - 2012-05-04 23:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: MadMuppet
Sid Hudgens wrote:
I can tell you that the learning implants can get new EVE players into a bad place in game. It happened to me and several people that I know. The cycle goes like this:


1. Start playing eve - learning, reading, tutorials, holy crap this is cool, what a deep game, etc
2. Hey I finished some skills and now I can fly a bigger, cooler ship! Sweet!
3. I wonder if I can train these skills faster so I can fly more even cooler ships?
4. Attribute implants! Perfect! ... and expesive
5. Grind ... Grind ... Grind
6. Woohoo implants! Evemon says this is gonna save so much time.
7. PVP? And loose the implants I spent all that time grinding for? No way!
8. Hmmm ... jump clones you say? Yes that's pefect then I can try pvp without loosing my implants!
8. I need to get my standings to what?
9. Grind missions
10. Grind missions
11. Grind missions
12. Grind missions
13. This game is so boring, **** this.


And that is why I quit EVE the first time I tried it. Same for some friends ... because of the damn jump clone standings grind. I came back; they haven't yet. Part of the reason I came back is because I learned about the Estel Arador corp and the shortcut to jump clones. Not sure if that service was around when I quit the first time but I know I hadn't heard of it.


I guess I would say that maybe the issue is more with jump clones than it is with learning implants.


The problem is that something needs to change at step 9. Easiest thing to do is join a jump clone corp like Astel, but I think it was earlier in this thread where someone said you should be able to get one jump clone for free (like you can get one Research agent for free or one PI station for free, but you need Research Project Management or Interplanetary Consolidation to get more). It should also be a tutorial mission so that people can understand the mechanic. Give them a +1 implant after they sucessfully clone jump as a reward.

(secondary part) To offset the improvement you would offset the jump clone timer by 30-60 minutes per level of Infomorph Pyschology.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
stoicfaux
#53 - 2012-05-04 23:30:27 UTC
Replace implants and hardwires with drugs/boosters and/or temporary implants. This creates an isk sink, allows players to pay small amounts over time instead of paying one big chunk of change at once for an implant, and thus removes the disincentive of losing a lot of isk when podded. It would also make "implants" more flexible, in that drugs/boosters/temp_implants can be changed more often without having to rely on jump clones and without the disincentive of a great loss of isk.

Basically, smaller daily/weekly/monthly payments versus a big one time payment.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#54 - 2012-05-04 23:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Ryshar wrote:
Learning implants are not evil or unfair. However, they are unnecessary and they give new pilots a bad first taste of EVE. Why bad? Well, new pilots immediately find out that getting into the ships they want to fly takes time. The learning implants reduce that time, and newbies will focus on getting those implants as soon as possible once they find out about them. However, they are relatively expensive for a new player and after they plug in the implants, they don't want to lose them.

For a beginner, those implants represent more than just the gametime they spent to get them. They mined or ran missions for days to get them, and to lose them would not only set them back tens of millions of ISK, it would gimp their character progression. After a new players gets these implants in his head, he becomes extremely risk averse. The idea of being podded is pretty scary to a newbie when he's carrying so much in his head.

After having learned this new behavior, a new pilot is much more likely to avoid going into lowsec or nullsec. This is generally bad for EVE. Aside from the obvious implications this has on new player experiences (they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit), this is not good for the EVE market. PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.

I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it.



NO

Evil

Just because you get blown up with them in your non-JumpCloned Self because you are a terribad player............

I call monstrously GIGANTIC TROLL

And if not Troll.........GTFO.

Hilmar is laughing at your terrible idea.

Another brainless dweeb who thinks EVE is PvP ONLY and not a Sandbox.

Please, go play WoW.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Pres Crendraven
#55 - 2012-05-04 23:42:30 UTC
All for some change here, Some good ideas mentioned. Should drop this idea over in features and Ideas also.

Grinding standings is just bad for the pvp game too.

They want to keep death real painful, I think thats whats in the balance.

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#56 - 2012-05-04 23:44:47 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:


also how would a new player even has access to jump clones? Maybe jump clones need to be a feature every player in eve can use no matter how poor or rich. old or young. That combined with a shorter timer would make a huge difference in the way newer players see and play the game.



You Morons just want to hop in a Capital on Day One and BLAP around.

FU...and I mean that sincerely.

If you don't have the patience for what EVE delivers....GTFO of my Sandbox.

If this is the new mindset of the newer players, it's time for us old timers to cash in and leave methinks.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#57 - 2012-05-04 23:45:26 UTC
Pres Crendraven wrote:



Grinding standings is just bad for the pvp game too.

.



See what I mean. What a self-entitled git.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#58 - 2012-05-04 23:46:06 UTC
This thread makes me sad TBH.



This would have been laughed off the forum 2 years ago.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#59 - 2012-05-04 23:50:40 UTC
Give it to the dust bunnies to manufacture.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#60 - 2012-05-04 23:52:44 UTC
Remove Learning Implants!

Now with 100% less Troll.