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Actual Shares markets are coming.

Author
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#1 - 2012-05-03 15:06:40 UTC
Just finished reading the latest dev blog, and looked at the most awesome feature in YEARS...

We now got way better features to start considering actual shares and values of our corp. These changes will def make a lot of people more interested in getting ready for actual trading of shares.

We might not have the option to plug it into scc market yet, but I would not rule it out; that ccp is seriously considering this now..

If you havent seen it, and havent noticed to ingame simple calculation of it values and thus passive assets of our NAV, go check out the dev blog NAO!!

Rengerel en Distel
#2 - 2012-05-03 15:42:27 UTC
The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Claire Voyant
#3 - 2012-05-03 16:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Claire Voyant
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?

The new unified inventory system will show you the current value of the items in your hangar, ship, container, etc. I personally think this was implemented to better flag potential money laundering activity. Some dreamers like Caleb think it is a sign that CCP wants to create more financial controls to help investors. We just humor the poor guy. He is really not well.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-05-03 16:24:25 UTC
you guys are still gonna be here in ten years talking about the financial expansion that's never gonna come

i only hope im not still here making fun of you...
GreenSeed
#5 - 2012-05-03 16:44:28 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?

The new unified inventory system will show you the current value of the items in your hangar, ship, container, etc. I personally think this was implemented to better flag potential money laundering activity. Some dreamers like Caleb think it is a sign that CCP wants to create more financial controls to help investors. We just humor the poor guy. He is really not well.


well, yeah i think hes high or something... but it would be nice to have some goodies.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#6 - 2012-05-03 18:06:08 UTC
So all the buzz elsewhere is just dreams?

When Hilmar talks about financial features in the forbes interview, that is him blowing smoke?

When they talk about balancing integration into DUST economy that is not gonna bring any new thoughts and old ideas back on the table?

When contract system has become pseudo nerfed by adding all the faction stuff on scc, that could not mean that they are going to look at exactly UI upgrades to play a part of a better contract system, with a form of storefront, as asked for a long time, and plugging data out to outgame access, like Dr E actually promised 2-3 years ago, and is now a natural progress from CREST and a now functional API system..

Yes things have taken a lot of time, but it IS finally starting to come together.. No we are not getting a NYSE with complete financial products.. WE are getting some minor tweaks and features, that was mentioned in many many posts discussed here on MD..

Claire Voyant
#7 - 2012-05-03 18:59:36 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
When Hilmar talks about financial features in the forbes interview, that is him blowing smoke?

Or smoking something. You need to read up on Iceland's idea of a financial system. Seeing Hilmar talk about "storytelling" in that Forbes interview reminds me of roleplaying and how nothing ticks me off more than people who roleplay at finance in Eve.
Stigman Zuwadza
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-03 23:07:20 UTC
This just in....

People roleplay in Eve ...uh oh, whats going on?

All those that don't roleplay in Eve please contract me your stuff as you leave. Big smile

Let the guy have his excitement, I for one have only just got over my excitement of being able to copy / paste the Price History.

Fly safe. o7

It's broken and it's been broken for a long time and it'll be broken for some time to come.

Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-05-03 23:10:20 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:

When contract system has become pseudo nerfed by adding all the faction stuff on scc, that could not mean that they are going to look at exactly UI upgrades to play a part of a better contract system, with a form of storefront, as asked for a long time, and plugging data out to outgame access, like Dr E actually promised 2-3 years ago, and is now a natural progress from CREST and a now functional API system..


Actually, that was so average prices on faction items could be determined for the new kill reports.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#10 - 2012-05-04 03:16:37 UTC
I may just cream myself the day eve introduces the eve stock market.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#11 - 2012-05-04 03:33:58 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?


I didn't see any Dev blog but the new Inventory system is on test server. It isn't giving accurate read outs on there with all the seeds but it works. It allows you to determine a Cargo value as well as hangar asset value. I suppose it will have a Psy-Ops value. 800 mill in that Badger might not look like such a good idea when the number is staring you in the face.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#12 - 2012-05-04 16:11:02 UTC
I don't know how to explain this any clearer.

A Stock Market will not happen in EVE.

Ever.

A stock market relies on regulation, but more importantly, legal penalties.

Since identities in EVE are too easy to change with alts and such, there is no effective way to punish a transgressor. Without a fear of punishment, there are no true incentives not to cheat. Without those incentives, there is no trust. Without trust, stock markets are impossible.

The only effective way to make a stock market work would be if all concord protection were removed and players could kill each other, including in-station, at all times. THEN, someone would have to forge their own empire, write out a set of laws, and be able to enforce fines and imprisonment. THEN there would have to be a series of laws written up regulating stock trading. THEN there would have to be people whose job it is to monitor said trades and enforce the laws.

Or you could have all of that done by CCP. But that pretty much ruins the whole sandbox thing, now doesn't it?
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-05-04 16:29:02 UTC
OllieNorth wrote:
I don't know how to explain this any clearer.

A Stock Market will not happen in EVE.

Ever.

A stock market relies on regulation, but more importantly, legal penalties.

Since identities in EVE are too easy to change with alts and such, there is no effective way to punish a transgressor. Without a fear of punishment, there are no true incentives not to cheat. Without those incentives, there is no trust. Without trust, stock markets are impossible.

The only effective way to make a stock market work would be if all concord protection were removed and players could kill each other, including in-station, at all times. THEN, someone would have to forge their own empire, write out a set of laws, and be able to enforce fines and imprisonment. THEN there would have to be a series of laws written up regulating stock trading. THEN there would have to be people whose job it is to monitor said trades and enforce the laws.

Or you could have all of that done by CCP. But that pretty much ruins the whole sandbox thing, now doesn't it?


Hey, thanks for typing out exactly what I couldn't be bothered to.

Moto Akimoto
Tengu and Cash
#14 - 2012-05-04 16:36:50 UTC
I think the stock market could work in Eve without involving Concord.

Valuation example using the new Inventory UI, with a corp NAV of 1 Billion ISK and 1000 shares: Stock price = 1 Million ISK

Enforcement example: The Corp is considered "Bankrupt" if Corp+CEO NAV<0 ISK. So if the NAV drops below 0 (zero) including the CEO's NAV then both the CORP and CEO are bankrupted. Once in Bankruptcy neither the Corp or character are usable ever again and would have a huge red "BANKRUPT" stamp across their picture sort of like the "Wanted" stamp.

Just a little more code from the Devs and no complicated Concord stuff.

Although, more alts would be required to pull off MD scams so ...
Johnny Frecko
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#15 - 2012-05-04 16:55:43 UTC
stock price isn't calculated by NAV/Shares.
So your theory is wrong :)
The value of a financial instrument is worth the present value of all future incomes.

Meaning that in order to set a price to a stock you need to assume(guess) how much dividend those shares will pay.
So a small 1B company(NAV) could have a much higher stock price.

Add to that that in eve you don't actually buy a part of the corporation(unlike real life) as there's no problem diluting shares and just making more as long as you have more than 50% of the shares.

There's a need for alot of regulation in order to make it work.
Including things like locking characters that are involved in the stock market so that they can't be transfered anymore, ever.
also maybe a skillpoint limitation to make it more painful.

You must impose A law somehow.
Moto Akimoto
Tengu and Cash
#16 - 2012-05-04 17:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Moto Akimoto
I'll just leave this for you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_asset_value

TLDR: 99.9% of all Mutual Fund & ETF shares traded in North America are calculated as NAV/Shares.

I believe what you are referring to is the "Discounted Cash Flow" valuation method, which also works fine and is used quiet often especially by guys like Warren Buffet.
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
#17 - 2012-05-04 17:28:53 UTC
The problems I have seen in EVE related to businesses (especially those on MD) is that they tend to be run, operated, and executed by a limited number of players (employees) within the company. Most of the more recent examples have been single players (with alts) establishing a business for a set purpose and then people investing in that individual.

This makes the investment game about trust in the individual instead of trust in the company. And that type of investment is better suited in a bond form, not an IPO.

Think about this. What if Red Frog Freight held an IPO? I have no idea what they would need the ISK for, but they have proven themselves to be a reliable multi-faceted corporation/business that has a long history of operating with profits over a sustained period of time. Hell, they've even shown they can weather war decs and still deliver on their stated goals.

This would make RFF an excellent candidate for an IPO. Other existing corps in EVE that come to mind would be EVE University (again, don't know why they would need the ISK, but that's beside the point for now), or Agony Unleashed for their PvP classes.

Facebook didn't 'go public' after 5 days of operation. They grew themselves into a strong company first. Then the company went public to encourage investment in their concept, and expand on what is already a successful business model. In my opinion, this is what IPOs should be about in EVE. Eventually, those are the kinds of company's the EVE stock market should contain.

Any of the company's listed above, if they held an IPO would probably sell shares fairly quickly and command a solid price because of their pre-existing reputation and strength. So, until we start to see some of these types of EVE corporations step forward to make themselves publicly traded, there really is no need for an official stock market, because it would just be populated with a lot of scam-bait.
Meili Jiang
Fugawa Heavy Industries
#18 - 2012-05-04 19:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Meili Jiang
Determining the value of corporations isn't what's keeping open market stock trading. That's actually pretty easy to figure out using the API and tools like jEVEAsset.

Regulation isn't what's missing either. Right now, there's a pretty healthy bond market in EVE without any regulation what so ever. Players actually manage to build enough trust that they can offer bonds and other players will invest in them. Same could be done for stocks.

In my opinion, what's missing is incentive for buyers and sellers.Normally, buyers are people with capital they want to put to good use. Buying shares would be somewhat pointless since sellers probably won't be paying much dividends, but more importantly, without an open market for buyers to trade shares, there's no way to make capital gains on them.

Sellers don't have much incentive either, given the pretty healthy bond market. It's also a pretty big headache to manage shares and shareholders, so I can imagine they'd want to do without that part.
LoreSpade Indigo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-05-06 04:13:48 UTC
I just got a weird idea. but you could tag people based on what crimes they commit. and have like a dude go thru petitions to have people listed for certain crimes like scams or whatnot. kinda have crimes tally up. they dont do anything but other people can see that ****.
or something....
yeah i totally lost where i was going sorry...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#20 - 2012-05-06 04:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Moto Akimoto wrote:
I'll just leave this for you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_asset_value

TLDR: 99.9% of all Mutual Fund & ETF shares traded in North America are calculated as NAV/Shares.

I believe what you are referring to is the "Discounted Cash Flow" valuation method, which also works fine and is used quiet often especially by guys like Warren Buffet.


MFs and ETFs have nothing to do with corporation shares though. Corporations have their NAV posted on their balance sheet though, in a similar yet vastly more detailed way than what I do in an EvE audit.

Warren Buffet is one of those contrarian finance geniuses who foresee that a company is heavily underpriced and buy it, then "open the eyes of the world" on the true value of those companies so their value jumps up.


Meili Jiang wrote:
Buying shares would be somewhat pointless since sellers probably won't be paying much dividends, but more importantly, without an open market for buyers to trade shares, there's no way to make capital gains on them.


This is also why stuff like futures will have almost impossible odds taking off.
People don't realize that those (and not MD bonds) are secondary markets. Each of those secondary markets is just un-implemented in EvE.
Both shares and futures would need their own trusted exchange, the ability to post buy and sell orders, to see price history tables, graphs and whatever.
Even MD bonds could have a secondary market like in RL but this happened extremely rarely. Anyone recalls how long ago people would buy and sell shares of MD bonds and IPOs between themselves? I have seen it done an handful of times over my whole EvE life.
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