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Easy solution to tech 2 BPO issue

First post
Author
sitar seaton
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-03 19:51:44 UTC
The main problem that tech 2 bpos present to the economy of eve is that they are researchable. This makes them inherently vastly more profitable than invention, so much so that in one market research report it was determined that 60% of all tech 2 ships were built from Tech 2 bpos, not through invention.

The easiest solution to this dilemma is to allow invented tech 2 bpcs to match the research of the underlying tech 1 bpo.

Problem solved!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#2 - 2012-05-03 19:57:04 UTC
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#3 - 2012-05-03 20:05:20 UTC
To have a solution, requires a problem. The is no problem with T2 BPOs. There is a problem with your reading of the data you site though.

Please stop with these threads. It's all been done a hundred times already with the same result. Nothing.

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Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#4 - 2012-05-03 20:22:56 UTC
Inventors can build any item they want.

Inventors choose to invent the items have the largest profits.

If inventors are not making a certain item, that means that the profits are small, and inventors do not WANT to build this item.

There is no problem.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-05-03 20:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s.


plu close this thread anyway, there are 3 threads alread that he is shitting up with his T2BPO moaning already https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=93154&find=unread

shar'ra phone home

Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#6 - 2012-05-03 20:37:03 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s.

I figured as much.

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#7 - 2012-05-03 20:43:51 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s.

I figured as much.



dammit, I really need to get "forum alt detection" up to level 5...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Debiru
Universal Fleet Operations
#8 - 2012-05-03 20:48:44 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
so much so that in one market research report it was determined that 60% of all tech 2 ships were built from Tech 2 bpos, not through invention.

Citation and raw data please.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#9 - 2012-05-03 20:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE.
Well, not yet, or not exactly.

Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts.
But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits.

No, it will not make invention noticeably more profitable (for the exact same amount of time spent inventing), at least not in the long run, and it will certainly NOT put invention on even footing with BPO manufacture (thanks to invention costs in T1 BPC, datacores and optional decryptor and/or metamodule).
Sure, it will make invention slightly more profitable than it is now (especially in the short run), but that's about it. No big "problem solved, invention rules". And it will still suck to invent small stuff thanks to the clickfest.

So what will it do then ?
Well, it will slightly decrease T2 item costs (less waste means less moongoo used which means more stuff from the same amount of bottleneck material), decrease moongoo prices (mostly from bottlneneck materials, currently technetium) and offer a larger market share to inventors, allowing more to operate simultaneously, also it will increase demand for datacores (raising their price for a while until people restart harvesting) and last but not least further nerf the RoI of T2 BPOs.
Arguably, most (or even all) of the above can be viewed as (mostly) positive things.

Like I said - somewhat of an improvement, but certainly not "problem solved".
Additional possible future improvements also depend on what else CCP plans to do with bottleneck moongoo and with datacore harvesting methods.
Still, invention will never be on par with T2 BPOs, but it could get close enough to not really matter all that much anymore.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-05-03 21:57:03 UTC
Oh, look, he's posting on an alt now. :-p
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2012-05-03 23:11:08 UTC
/some/ ships mostly come from T2 BPOS. That came up in the twitter feed of CCP Diagoras.

Things like Command ships.

Interestingly, a lot of command ships are selling below material costs. And that's with a perfect BPO (which people don't have as it would take years and years of research)

http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/22442/1400/5/0/5 for example (EOS)

However, that's a tiny market.

Are T2 BPOs cheaper to make stuff with? Yes. Are they a lot cheaper? Not so much. Especially with non-ships. Most of the material costs there are from the 'extra' materials, which aren't affected by ME. The main difference is the Invention cost, which the OP's suggestion does nothing to.

Simple answer is:
If you can't make a profit on it, don't make it. Not difficult.

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Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#12 - 2012-05-04 01:57:42 UTC
Akita T wrote:
I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE.
Well, not yet, or not exactly.

Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts.
But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits.


Allowing T1 BPC ME/PE levels to have an effect on the output would also make some of the various decryptors much more interesting as you could offset some of their drawbacks by researching your T1 BPO before copying.

The formula that I've always been partial to is:

T2 ME = Sqrt(T1 ME) - 5

It would help narrow the gap in material costs (depending on the T2 item, that can be a big deal or not a big deal).

Lower datacore costs would also help narrow the gap.

Improvements in the invention process would help narrow the gap.
Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
#13 - 2012-05-04 12:42:11 UTC
Hey Akita!

Were you on a break some time ago? I didn't see you raiding the t2 bpo threads Kuvakei was spamming at first, so I took the liberty of slapping him with that t2 bpo threadnaught of yours. Doubt he read it though. Think he's the blind & deaf preacher type.
Morgan Dinn
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#14 - 2012-05-04 13:18:16 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.


Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one.
So until that happens there is a problem.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2012-05-04 13:28:17 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.


Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one.
So until that happens there is a problem.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=278

or

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=279

Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Morgan Dinn
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#16 - 2012-05-04 13:34:02 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.


Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one.
So until that happens there is a problem.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=278

or

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=279

Cool


And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE.
Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#17 - 2012-05-04 13:54:43 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Akita T wrote:
I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE.
Well, not yet, or not exactly.

Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts.
But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits.


Allowing T1 BPC ME/PE levels to have an effect on the output would also make some of the various decryptors much more interesting as you could offset some of their drawbacks by researching your T1 BPO before copying.

The formula that I've always been partial to is:

T2 ME = Sqrt(T1 ME) - 5

It would help narrow the gap in material costs (depending on the T2 item, that can be a big deal or not a big deal).

Lower datacore costs would also help narrow the gap.

Improvements in the invention process would help narrow the gap.

I like the idea of the T1 me having an effect on the invented blueprint. Right now, research is kind of a boring and while necessary, doesn't really add much to the end game. This would add some complexity to the process and make research a bit more interesting.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-05-04 14:24:23 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Morgan Dinn wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.


Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one.
So until that happens there is a problem.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=278

or

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=279

Cool


And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE.


everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.


shar'ra phone home

Keia Nomesteturj
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-05-04 15:56:33 UTC
Quote:


everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.




At the risk of beating a dead horse, there was not an equal opportunity to receive a t2 bpo as you might expect in a sandbox game. Eve is slowly becoming a linear game with a push toward a null sec "endgame" and favoritism toward the large nullsec corps. The gripe about T2 BPOs is consistent with this. There's a difference between a player-controlled market, and a market controlled by a few players.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#20 - 2012-05-04 16:04:26 UTC
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:
Quote:


everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.




At the risk of beating a dead horse, there was not an equal opportunity to receive a t2 bpo as you might expect in a sandbox game. Eve is slowly becoming a linear game with a push toward a null sec "endgame" and favoritism toward the large nullsec corps. The gripe about T2 BPOs is consistent with this. There's a difference between a player-controlled market, and a market controlled by a few players.


right, because only a few players can invent. Roll

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

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