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AFK Cloaker solution
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#61 - 2012-05-02 20:22:52 UTC
That was... long.

Here is a shorter version.

Part 1 talks about local, and how ships can still protect themselves by making the effort.
Part 2 talks about how you could hunt a cloaked ship. Having read a lot of ideas, this feels like the most practical that still makes cloaking viable. And I think it has more things going boom, in the end.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Ok, here is a two part bit I am suggesting, feel free to criticize if done constructively.

Part 1; The trade off.
Dump at least cloaked ships out of local. They don't belong there unless they want to be seen, and they can chatter away if that's the case.
Enable an auto-cycle of the D-Scan, with the following details:
It can detect if a cloaked vessel enters it's range, but cannot determine location or number.
It shuts off when you enter warp.
It shuts off when you do a system change, by any means.
One exception, the ships designed to probe are able to have it run nonstop even when warping. (This would include any ship with bonuses to probing)

Part 2; Hunt the hunters.
Use probes designed to hunt cloaked ships. Specialty item, T2.
The probes can decloak ships by either proximity, or by getting on grid with ships they have tracked, and pulsing an inverted energy wave to the cloaked vessel's power frequency. The cloaked vessel cannot reengage their cloak until they get off grid with the probe.
Stopping them is the hunter's problem. The probe just creates an opportunity if used right.
(Gate camps won't find this very useful, as probing down the newly arrived cloaked vessel will allow the vessel in question to leave before it completes.)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-05-02 21:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Part 2; Hunt the hunters.
Use probes designed to hunt cloaked ships. Specialty item, T2.
The probes can decloak ships by either proximity, or by getting on grid with ships they have tracked, and pulsing an inverted energy wave to the cloaked vessel's power frequency. The cloaked vessel cannot reengage their cloak until they get off grid with the probe.
Stopping them is the hunter's problem. The probe just creates an opportunity if used right.
(Gate camps won't find this very useful, as probing down the newly arrived cloaked vessel will allow the vessel in question to leave before it completes.)

Why is it you feel this would not be extensively used by gate campers? you must not be a prober or a gate camper. The probes are set in place ahead of time and are activated whenever the scanner button is mashed. So, with d-scan on around the clock..as soon as they see a cloaked vessel on grid the probes are hit. no cloaks until off grid; easy kills... cloaking will be broken for this and other uses..

It's a bad plan and poorly thought out idea. I have no problem with the removal of the cloaked from local however - this is the one good thing you add.

Quote:
You absolutely cannot locate a cloaked vessel, unless they let you, or make a mistake.

Cloakers can be revealed and uncloaked if they are not wary.. they can also be lured and ambused.. there is no 100% safety for an active cloaker unless he stays away.. which by the way you can do without being cloaked.
And the AFK cloaker is not there so ... he's no treat anyway.

Quote:
Not really, no. Black ops warping cloaked isn't particularly useful when the vast majority of targets are going to be docked up when your cyno 5 toon enters local.

Black Ops cloaking warped would be useful just for the fact that it's the only member of a black ops fleet that can't now do it.. .. this doesn't make much sense.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-05-02 22:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
I am still in favor of a sov dependent upgrade to the ihub that decloaks everyone in the system with a 7 hour cool down. anyone at their computer wont have an issue, and its only the metagamers that cry when they realize that their alts got scanned and killed.

Probes are too easy to abuse, and ships wont have the range that is needed for this. other module suggestions seem op when used for gatecamps, or proximity dependent which is an issue past the gate when that cov ops has had a chance to make a single safe.

But again, i stress something that people like to bring up about miners in hisec, "No one should be 100% safe in space."

Cloaked ships currently are, regardless of the threat that they present or are perceived to present.
I'm looking for a way to make this so (that no one is 100% safe undocked), without breaking the cloaking mechanic for people that are active.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#64 - 2012-05-03 14:05:50 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Why is it you feel this would not be extensively used by gate campers? you must not be a prober or a gate camper. The probes are set in place ahead of time and are activated whenever the scanner button is mashed. So, with d-scan on around the clock..as soon as they see a cloaked vessel on grid the probes are hit. no cloaks until off grid; easy kills... cloaking will be broken for this and other uses..

It's a bad plan and poorly thought out idea. I have no problem with the removal of the cloaked from local however - this is the one good thing you add.

The gate cloak is exempt from this effect. I thought that would have been obvious, but since you assumed otherwise, I say it here and now. If the gate cloak was vulnerable to this, EVERY vessel coming through would be popped right after the analyze button was clicked by the probing ship, and the probes activated to neutralize it.
A cloaked vessel only becomes probable by engaging their own cloak when they attempt to move, (or take an action), so any prior probing would reveal nothing.

Also, the command to send the probe after the cloaked vessel is not automatic.
The situation where you want the vessel decloaked often requires assistance.
As probing vessel needs to prepare, the probes wait on a go command you deliver by right clicking on them. (Like many probe commands, you can highlight multiple if you are worried the cloaker could destroy a single too quickly. This would send as many as you highlighted to disable the cloak while it remained on grid)

Thus, the window where this probe would reveal a cloaker is much smaller than you would need in order to be useful.
(Non covert ops ships are easy targets already, they are not included in this, as the probes benefit against them is trivial)

And just so there is no confusion:
I am a cloaker.
I am a prober.
And I am a miner.
(In other words, I am active in the aspects that I am describing above)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#65 - 2012-05-03 15:32:09 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I am still in favor of a sov dependent upgrade to the ihub

im still against

Kusum Fawn wrote:
anyone at their computer wont have an issue, and its only the metagamers that cry when they realize that their alts got scanned and killed.

why should I be at the computer to play the game?
There are a lot of things which keep running when I'm afk, even skilling. Get over it, being at PC in order to avoid being killed is a sh*tty cloak mechanic.

Kusum Fawn wrote:
But again, i stress something that people like to bring up about miners in hisec, "No one should be 100% safe in space."

yeah and thats the role of unblobbable (afk)cloakers in 0.0. Doesnt make much sense adding risk to the risk, which then can be removed by blob and render 0.0 100% safe.
Safety for cloakers is all right, they arent getting ISK for that, they arent getting paid otherwise for what they doing, there is no problem being nearly 100% safe when cloaked. What I have problem with is carebears flooding economy with ISK while being safe due to some crappy thought out anti-cloak mechanic.

Get the **** out already.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-05-03 17:18:38 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Why is it you feel this would not be extensively used by gate campers? you must not be a prober or a gate camper. The probes are set in place ahead of time and are activated whenever the scanner button is mashed. So, with d-scan on around the clock..as soon as they see a cloaked vessel on grid the probes are hit. no cloaks until off grid; easy kills... cloaking will be broken for this and other uses..

It's a bad plan and poorly thought out idea. I have no problem with the removal of the cloaked from local however - this is the one good thing you add.

The gate cloak is exempt from this effect. I thought that would have been obvious, but since you assumed otherwise, I say it here and now. If the gate cloak was vulnerable to this, EVERY vessel coming through would be popped right after the analyze button was clicked by the probing ship, and the probes activated to neutralize it.
A cloaked vessel only becomes probable by engaging their own cloak when they attempt to move, (or take an action), so any prior probing would reveal nothing.

Also, the command to send the probe after the cloaked vessel is not automatic.
The situation where you want the vessel decloaked often requires assistance.
As probing vessel needs to prepare, the probes wait on a go command you deliver by right clicking on them. (Like many probe commands, you can highlight multiple if you are worried the cloaker could destroy a single too quickly. This would send as many as you highlighted to disable the cloak while it remained on grid)

Thus, the window where this probe would reveal a cloaker is much smaller than you would need in order to be useful.
(Non covert ops ships are easy targets already, they are not included in this, as the probes benefit against them is trivial)

And just so there is no confusion:
I am a cloaker.
I am a prober.
And I am a miner.
(In other words, I am active in the aspects that I am describing above)



I'm not talking about gate cloaking... you are not a covert cloak user then? The gate cloak is fine as long as you don't move - as soon as you move and try to switch to your covert cloak you are screwed.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#67 - 2012-05-03 17:46:07 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I'm not talking about gate cloaking... you are not a covert cloak user then? The gate cloak is fine as long as you don't move - as soon as you move and try to switch to your covert cloak you are screwed.

If they have a bubble up, the covert cloaker has to slowboat out first. This gives a competent gate camp plenty of time to decloak you by proximity using basic drone dragging tactics.

If they do NOT have a bubble up, your exposure is limited to your time to align and warp out. They need to do four things in this brief period.

For my cheetah, that time is 3.4 seconds.
For my hound, that is 5.5 seconds.

To catch them without a bubble:

1 Start the analyze cycle the moment I transfer from gate cloak. Any sooner, and the gate cloak will scramble the results since I was not visible during the entire scan.
2 Trigger your drones by right clicking them to emit the pulse.
3 Target lock me with the ship that can point me.
4 Point me. And hope I am not using a stab...

Unless you successfully complete part 4, I am off grid, and can play tag with you for a very long time.

And yes, I can fly covert with 8 different ship models, at last count.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
radecz3k
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-05-03 17:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: radecz3k
Hello people. I have read all posts in this topic and i will not give any solution, but i want to show few thing about what some people forget like Simi Kusoni.

Simi Kusoni you sound like man using cloak everyday to harm others, you feel powerfull with it, but without it? Dont force me to harm you with cloak as i can force you, your brothers, your sisters even to quit game because of afk cloakers camping all yoru sovs if you would have one. Its nothing personal but you talk crap. Its easy to be hunter who dont have counter. Even lions die hunted by other animals.

Thing is simple i like cloak as its gives options for game, i dont like it because i dont want to play with your computer, your $ spend on your electricy and macro cycling cloak or something. I want to play with you dude. So come at me bro:) and i will come at you not on your pc running 24/7 while you are sleeping.

Small summary of few things i have seen in this long topic full of hate of angry "pro pvpers".
- Its not about bears. You can hunt them without problem without cloak. There will be always someone stupid.
- Want to camp system 24/7? send 5 man, take watches and changing man once every few hours. You will give efort to make others harm not only use your computer to gain advantage
- You cant do point above? Be better, bigger win eve. You dont have friends to help you? Die in fire.
- Small story for 24/7 while invasion in deklein by NC./raiden/PL ohters most of systems having any value had neutral/red cyno afk camper. What it shows? Simple, some people have power/isk/$ to send 20-30 campers to your space, dont take any direct actions to harm you, and you cant defend because they are fighting with accounts paid by isk/pc running for $ where arent any real man playing. Its game for players not computers. What would be fine with me in this situation? Answer: having real 20 man camping systems who would paid with game time/coffie/less sleep to harm others.
- People dont have afk cloakers because they kill stupid people, they hate them because there is no counter for bombers/recons who dont jump with gates. If someone is in system with covert cloak 10000 man alliance cant remove him.
- Some talk about "removing" covert campers? You cant bait covert man really, its just thing about covert pilots who are even more stupid than bears they want to hunt. Cloaky bomber is choosing victims and its almost not able to look like one.
- small thing at end. Some people dont come to systems to do hotdrops, they just move alts with cloaks to block usage not to fight.
Christopher AET
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-05-03 23:20:32 UTC
I will start with saying I am not against people being cloaked in a system for hours even days at a time. It is a totally valid tactic and one which I would not see removed. The only broken part is indeed the AFK part. Someone should remain at least partly attentive to their account to remain undetected. That way there is a balance of effort on both sides.

It is my opinion and that of many I have spoken to that you should not be able to play the game without playing so to speak.

To this end I will throw out my proposition. A POS mod that "overloads" all cloaking devices in system both friendly and hostile. Once this mod is triggered cloaks are not immediately cut. That would be OP and a massive nerf to active players such as bomber gangs etc.

What this would do is cause all active cloaking devices to slowly take overheating damage. To prevent this all a player would have to do is decloak and cloak up again. The overheat itself would indeed be very slow. However if after 10 minutes or so the player has not cycled their cloak their cloaking device "burns out" and has to be repaired in a station.

If a cloaky camper is paying even a modicum of attention to his account then it's no issue to him. Camper can camp and is well within his rights to do so. No other game combat mechanic has such a great effect while one of the combatants is AFK.

Besides surely a bit of cat and mouse is more fun for all involved.

Much love

Chris

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#70 - 2012-05-03 23:59:58 UTC
Christopher AET wrote:
I will start with saying I am not against people being cloaked in a system for hours even days at a time. It is a totally valid tactic and one which I would not see removed. The only broken part is indeed the AFK part. Someone should remain at least partly attentive to their account to remain undetected. That way there is a balance of effort on both sides.

Easy solution: let neutrals dock.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#71 - 2012-05-04 05:34:20 UTC
Preybird MKII wrote:
Random whining, crying and screaming about AFK cloakers


Remove cloaked ships from local. Problem solved.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
radecz3k
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-05-04 08:09:06 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Preybird MKII wrote:
Random whining, crying and screaming about AFK cloakers


Remove cloaked ships from local. Problem solved.


Mate slowly. You just said you want to give more advantage to ships that are atm to much powerfull.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-05-04 09:03:17 UTC
I still don't see any problems in being afk...

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#74 - 2012-05-04 09:57:07 UTC
A scond post about the same problem: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102852&p=4

That is true that someaone AFK is not a danger.
But You have no way to know he is AFK, so you have to play as if this hostile were present.
So His presence just stuck the system.
Cloaking is not a game mechanic to be AFK all the day.
It is made to Scout an hostile system, and to Hunt ennemies in hostile system.
So it may not be use for another mean that is not far of an exploit.

I am really fed up to see hostiles in my SOV with not any chance to chase them. It is absolutely enraging to know that he is here and that I can't do anything about it. I should not know that an invisible ennemy is present. If I know he is there I must be abble to fight back.

So CCP with our help, have to find a way to allow the cloaking device to do its job correctly.

To me two meassures could be enough:

1- Your name should disapear in the local 10 seconds after you cloaked.
It would give a chance to cloakers to catch a pilot that did not see him enter the local and re-cloak...


2- Cloaking should cost fuel.
It would avoid afk cloaking and make the cloak use much harder.
Covert Ops, Recon Ship, and others warp-cloaky would have an additional special cargohold for this fuel large enough to cloak 8 hours non stop or 960 activations (1 unit for 30s). For the others the fuel would only be in their cargohold.


Probing cloaked ship is an option more difficult to do. How long it could take to probe a cloaky ship? If it is fast cloak will be useless, if it is long the cloaked ship will be too far to be decloaked when you will warp on him....

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-05-04 10:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Colonel Xaven
Cardano Firesnake wrote:

Cloaking is not a game mechanic to be AFK all the day.



Cloaking is made for whatever people want. Just because you don't agree with some use cases doesn't mean it's broken or something....

The construction of a game-related "problem" via forum threads started by a few people over and over again is just unecessary (and has been since 2008/9) as well as meanwhile ridiculous. The problem is still mind-related. And thus the presentation of a game-related solution for a mind-related problem is... let's say ... questionable.

So, at least be honest and say: "Nerf cloaking at all!". And do not abuse being AFK for that reason.

Cardano Firesnake wrote:

I am really fed up to see hostiles in my SOV with not any chance to chase them. It is absolutely enraging to know that he is here and that I can't do anything about it.


Here you go. Mind-related. Eve is cruel.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#76 - 2012-05-04 17:16:52 UTC
radecz3k wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Preybird MKII wrote:
Random whining, crying and screaming about AFK cloakers


Remove cloaked ships from local. Problem solved.


Mate slowly. You just said you want to give more advantage to ships that are atm to much powerfull.


Here's the thing. You are crying about ships that can't affect you due to the fact that it is cloaked and AFK is ridiculous.

If it isn't in local, it's basically acting like WHS, and you don't know it's there.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-05-04 18:25:58 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
A scond post about the same problem: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102852&p=4


2- Cloaking should cost fuel.
It would avoid afk cloaking and make the cloak use much harder.
Covert Ops, Recon Ship, and others warp-cloaky would have an additional special cargohold for this fuel large enough to cloak 8 hours non stop or 960 activations (1 unit for 30s). For the others the fuel would only be in their cargohold.


Probing cloaked ship is an option more difficult to do. How long it could take to probe a cloaky ship? If it is fast cloak will be useless, if it is long the cloaked ship will be too far to be decloaked when you will warp on him....



no probing... no fuel; both ideas are bad.

Removing the cloaked from local however will remove the truly afk from the conversation once and for all.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-05-06 01:01:39 UTC
Considering the danger hi-sec miners have been under and not being unable to employ an escort to avoid Catalyst ganks, this really is a non-issue. I have sympathy for those guys. They really are sitting ducks.

Holding sov means if you own the space you have to provide all the support systems too. Including a police force to underwrite your safety. You also have to accept that it is your responsibility to fight back or make yourself an unattractive target.

You can't expect to live in the frontier and not have to fend a bear or wolf off from time to time. Be prepared or go back east.
Aleksander Erkkinen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-05-06 01:12:50 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Considering the danger hi-sec miners have been under and not being unable to employ an escort to avoid Catalyst ganks, this really is a non-issue. I have sympathy for those guys. They really are sitting ducks.

Holding sov means if you own the space you have to provide all the support systems too. Including a police force to underwrite your safety. You also have to accept that it is your responsibility to fight back or make yourself an unattractive target.

You can't expect to live in the frontier and not have to fend a bear or wolf off from time to time. Be prepared or go back east.

Hey! A null sec pilot who doesn't sound like a carebear. I tip my hat to you sir; good points and well made.
Lin Gerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-05-06 01:14:30 UTC
Okay so I'll admit I didn't read much of the suggestion or the comments as I've seen this stated a lot and it brings up questions to me.

1. Why is a single AFK cloaky a bad thing?
2. If it is such a large problem why not just give a cloak module an activation timer of like 120-240 seconds with cloaky ships getting a 75-99% reduction in cap costs per cycle? Or is there a giant problem with giving a cap cost to cloak mods?