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Tilting at windmills

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Shian Yang
#181 - 2012-05-03 23:49:37 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:

The corporation I currently operate out of is quite alt heavy with each player having:
2-3 x high sec logistic alts in either in alt corps or NPC corps
2-3 x high sec PI alts in NPC corps
2-3 x high sec market alts either in alt corps or NPC corps
1-2 x high sec incursion runners either in alt corps or NPC corps
1-2 x high sec spy/gank alts in Empire Corps
2-3 x 0.0 "mains"

This might sound extreme but as the situation dictates alts are scrapped and new ones made or de-subscribed until needed - it is pretty common and makes the bandying around of 0.0 vs High Sec numbers redundant.



Greetings fellow Minmatarrian,

It is interesting to see you have listed pilots that prefer the lawless frontier of nullsec as the primary pilots, with a large number of co-pilots spread across the rest of New Eden. Your observation of your corporation appears to mirror the point capsuleer Tippia has made.

Especially considering that 5 to 8 of those co-pilots would be fairly passive and remaining 3 to 5 would see occasional use.

Regards,

Shian Yang
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#182 - 2012-05-03 23:50:37 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


Nothing tinfoil about it.

CCP Soundwave is indeed a goon. Ironically he's also the 'Lead' game designer.

http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac

I'm sure there's a few more goon Devs employed at CCP but I'm not going to look right now. If I did look, I'd probably rage quit which would end up wasting my already paid subscription fee.

I agree with the OP but I believe it's too late now. The handwriting is on the wall.


CCP Soundwave (The lead dev) and CCP Sreegs (The guy who just banned all the bots) are both goons. Bye.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2012-05-03 23:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
How many people with a Null Sec alt spend most of their time trading Jita or running missions?
Doesn't particularly matter.

Quote:
If someone spends 75% of his time running missions with one character and 25% of his time mining in Null Sec with the other, then is he Null Sec or High Sec?
¬(Highsec) for the simple reason that he obviously can stand the idea of being outside of highsec.

Quote:
Most people don't argue with women.
So?

Asuri Kinnes wrote:
No, but what you are doing is disregarding the:

Cap/Super Cap Ship Alts (not everyone who sits in one is a *main*),
Logistics (freighter/jump-freighter),
scout/cyno/whatever alts that draw the ultimate number of null/lowsec residents down as well...
No, I'm not, because they all fall into the category of ¬(Highsec). Again, that's the beauty of using an exclusive category, and what I'm saying is simply that the mere fact that null/lowsec players have highsec alts means that the actual percentage of highsec players must be lower than the 70% in those graphs. How much lower? Well, that's up to what ratios between higsec and non-highsec characters on those accounts. A simple 1:1 ratio (which isn't much of a stretch to imagine) would put the number of highsec accounts at as low as 30–40%. This is where the alt uses you mention might be a factor, but it doesn't change what we know for sure: that highsec does not actually account for 70% of the accounts.


According to Tippia almost all "Null Sec" players have alts in High Sec.

Also, according to Tippia, anyone who spends any time at all outside of their favorite Sec., High/Low/Null is not really that sec. IE: No True Scotsman. For that matter, it doesn't seem to matter if they spend ANY time on that alt. Hulk got wormholed into Goonworld and hasn't been logged onto in 5 months? Player is still ¬(Highsec)

So obviously it is true that:

99% of players ¬(Nullsec)

Because almost everyone has an alt somewhere outside of Null Sec.

Right Tippia?

And I'm still waiting on the calculations on the actual percentage of people who have PC Alliance Null Space characters as their main. You like math, it should be fun to figure that out!
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#184 - 2012-05-03 23:55:34 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
The stats in QEN show a picture of where the pilots actually are when the snapshot is taken. Of course the sooper dooper null sec heroes want to diminish the statistical picture so that high sec players are not as huge a percentage of the total population as the real statistics show. Because of course only the sooper dooper null sec players know anything. The last Quarterly Economic newsletter I can find is from 2010 and shows that 85% of the pilots in the game were in high sec at the time of the snapshot.

Of course I am arguing from facts and not from guesstistics, so I am undoubtedly wrong. The truth is that an embarrassingly large percentage of EVE stays in high sec and does care about the other parts of the game. Those who don't like this statistic are desperate to spin the argument in some other direction. Because high sec players are very low on the social scale.

Not that it matters. CCP does not listen to high sec players. They can't, because they have their collective heads up the GOON butt.


I think the point being argued is that for my two nullsec characters (My PVP Main, and my Cap pilot) I have multiple support characters scattered throughout highsec, datacore alts, cyno alts that I tend to leave in high right next to low, and I have two trade hub alts so I can get some general price comparison for some items.

I honestly don't even know how you would begin to quantify a real number without some kind of forced census on login as to whether a player considered himself a nullsec, lowsec (Haha) or highsec player.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#185 - 2012-05-03 23:55:56 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Enuen Ravenseye wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
what do you hisecers want again?


To be left in peace ... so they can continue to bot and RMT without interference.


Pretty sure this is easier to do in nullsec with the co-operation of the local alliance.

Not that any of them would condone such activity, of course.


Yes ask the Gewns

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#186 - 2012-05-03 23:56:53 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Enuen Ravenseye wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
what do you hisecers want again?


To be left in peace ... so they can continue to bot and RMT without interference.


I thought most of those recently caught were not in hi-sec. Am I mistaken in this?



You are mistaken. More bots were banned from The Forge than from all of 0.0 IIRC.


So they were market bots. Which are even more universally hated than mining bots, because you can't even gank them and they can do even more stuff that humans can't. Any idea where the most mining bots were banned?


lemme guess.... High sec?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2012-05-03 23:57:12 UTC
FeralShadow wrote:
This really seems like the classic "Highsec doesn't give a rat's ass, they're off doing their own boring things solo around the galaxy" until something is changed then it becomes "We don't like any competition or confrontation whatsoever so instead of adapting and working together and moving to low/null and raking in the dough we're going to stubbornly sit here in high sec where we make crap isk and cry about it"

Heard it here first folks. Oh wait it's all over the place.


No, actually they began to leave and then you stopped mouthing off.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#188 - 2012-05-03 23:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Fannie Maes wrote:


Yeah before the CSM not a single eve player gave a **** about this game. Thanks to CSM CCP are now able to receive feedback for the first time in history and gamers are able to care!

I can't wait until CSM exists in every single game and community, without them there is no feedback, change, progress or personal investments taking place.


PS: That was ******* sarcasmP


Double PS: Please explain how being in goons is more risky than high-sec? Besides being commanded by a ******** FC that does not know about aggro mechanics Lol


You DO know the CSM's original charter was to go to Iceland and make sure CCP wasnt cheating?


Yeah, an Im mad
Also, how many of the votes in the last election were alts? PLEX paid alts? IM guessing about 10k

Quote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
If high sec players want any control over their game, they have to become organized, and form a strong voting bloc.


and get more than 10,000 of you at any time. Thats the least youll need for that bloc

Quote:
As for High Sec being riskier than Null...

When was the last time you got lost access to all your high sec assets because Sov changed hands and you are locked out of your station in Amarr?

When was the last time you couldn't mine, not because you know a gank squad is in the area for the day, but because there are a few thousand hostile pilots camping you in the station?

When was the last time you needed to form up with thousands of other players and engage in an hours long fleet battle just for the right to not be forced to move elsewhere?

The truth is, you wouldn't last a week in Null... and I suspect you realize that. Smile

Quote:

When I check troll in the dictionary...

Im guessing you see a mirror


When was the last time you looked at the map and realized that in one system in high sec there were more ship and pod kills than in any in null?

or when you last logged in... I never see you NOT on the forums

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Shian Yang
#189 - 2012-05-03 23:59:44 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
According to Tippia almost all "Null Sec" players have alts in High Sec.

Also, according to Tippia, anyone who spends any time at all outside of their favorite Sec., High/Low/Null is not really that sec. IE: No True Scotsman. For that matter, it doesn't seem to matter if they spend ANY time on that alt. Hulk got wormholed into Goonworld and hasn't been logged onto in 5 months? Player is still ¬(Highsec)

So obviously it is true that:

99% of players ¬(Nullsec)

Because almost everyone has an alt somewhere outside of Null Sec.

Right Tippia?


Greetings capsuleer,

You have been shown to promote falsehood over truth. Why should you be given consideration or credence when you yourself cannot separate truth from lie?

Regards,

Shian Yang
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2012-05-03 23:59:55 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
The stats in QEN show a picture of where the pilots actually are when the snapshot is taken. Of course the sooper dooper null sec heroes want to diminish the statistical picture so that high sec players are not as huge a percentage of the total population as the real statistics show. Because of course only the sooper dooper null sec players know anything. The last Quarterly Economic newsletter I can find is from 2010 and shows that 85% of the pilots in the game were in high sec at the time of the snapshot.

Of course I am arguing from facts and not from guesstistics, so I am undoubtedly wrong. The truth is that an embarrassingly large percentage of EVE stays in high sec and does care about the other parts of the game. Those who don't like this statistic are desperate to spin the argument in some other direction. Because high sec players are very low on the social scale.

Not that it matters. CCP does not listen to high sec players. They can't, because they have their collective heads up the GOON butt.


I think the point being argued is that for my two nullsec characters (My PVP Main, and my Cap pilot) I have multiple support characters scattered throughout highsec, datacore alts, cyno alts that I tend to leave in high right next to low, and I have two trade hub alts so I can get some general price comparison for some items.

I honestly don't even know how you would begin to quantify a real number without some kind of forced census on login as to whether a player considered himself a nullsec, lowsec (Haha) or highsec player.


And that is an excellent idea.

In fact, I have no idea why every game doesn't have "do the poll for 1,000,000 ISK/100 gold/1 Kitten of the Hoard"
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2012-05-04 00:02:31 UTC
Shian Yang wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
According to Tippia almost all "Null Sec" players have alts in High Sec.

Also, according to Tippia, anyone who spends any time at all outside of their favorite Sec., High/Low/Null is not really that sec. IE: No True Scotsman. For that matter, it doesn't seem to matter if they spend ANY time on that alt. Hulk got wormholed into Goonworld and hasn't been logged onto in 5 months? Player is still ¬(Highsec)

So obviously it is true that:

99% of players ¬(Nullsec)

Because almost everyone has an alt somewhere outside of Null Sec.

Right Tippia?


Greetings capsuleer,

You have been shown to promote falsehood over truth. Why should you be given consideration or credence when you yourself cannot separate truth from lie?

Regards,

Shian Yang


Is it my problem that attempting to take you seriously leads to stupid conclusions?

Are you suggesting I stop taking you seriously?

Well, I already stopped taking YOU seriously, but Tippia at least uses real numbers instead of idiot babble.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#192 - 2012-05-04 00:05:43 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Polly Oxford wrote:

Why are you still quoting that site? How is number of simultaneous users a good indicator of how the game is growing/shrinking? CCP gives subscriber numbers, which is the only interesting thing from a business perspective. That ****** graph can't account for people that only log in for an hour a day compared to someone who is logged in all day.

Also insinuating that Devs are corrupt without any proof whatsoever is despicable. Normally this forum is a great form of amusement, because people whine about everything, but accusations like this are disgusting and I really hope you will find another game to play.
I don't care if you hate me and call me names, but some lowlife making stuff up to hurt people in their real life is just wrong.


No proof? Are you suggesting that there is no proof, in the present or past of devs favoring specific players groups?

Really? I mean really? For real? Not a tiny bit of proof?


I saw it in another thread. BRB

THERE IT IS

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1241374#post1241374

needs a new post to quote tho

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#193 - 2012-05-04 00:05:50 UTC
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:


I don't know the full story, but SO WHAT?


Firstly, given you still cant say ********** on the forums it shows not ALL THAT MUCH has changed.

Quote:
16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.


Gotta love that reasoning when you ban the guy outing the dev doing something wrong first off

k hang on


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/op-ed/847-Jumpgate-EVEs-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep

http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/1458-JumpGate-EVEs-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep-Part-2

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/68794-JumpGate-EVE-Dev-Wrap

http://kunochan.com/?p=90

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/68608-Jumpgate-EVE-Devs-Update

So if you want to be purposefully ignorant here, IE you wont read it, do us a favor and dont post about stuff you refuse to educate yourself about

Quote:
Also, never shoot the messenger. CCP is mad at K-man because he went straight to the community, instead of privately reporting his suspicions to CCP. Yet it seems clear that without the “ruckus,” CCP would not have responded. Besides, K-man is not a CCP employee. He is a community member, and his loyalty is to the community. He pays (paid) for five different accounts — CCP works for him, not the other way around.


Quote:
Developer misconduct

Instances of developer misconduct in Eve Online have been substantiated, leading to debates and controversy within the game community. On February 9, 2007, a player known as ********** revealed that Eve Online developer t20 had provided his alliance, Band of Brothers, with ten valuable blueprints, giving them an advantage over competing alliances. Some within the Eve Online community asked for t20's dismissal. While an apology letter was left for the community in the form of a dev blog, he remained an Eve Online developer until late 2008. ********** was permanently banned from the Eve Online universe for violating the game's terms of service and end-user license agreement by revealing t20's real name.

In response to public concerns, CCP decided to set up an internal affairs division whose responsibility is to monitor the activities of both privileged and player accounts operated by CCP staff in-game.
Council of Stellar Management

In part due to the matters above, CCP invited users to stand for the first Council of Stellar Management (CSM) in March 2008, resulting in 66 candidates seeking election to nine positions. It was a requirement that candidates release their full real names in addition to stating their in-game details.[106] In May, after a two-week voting period, the first Council was elected, comprising seven men and two women; three each from the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, two from the USA and one from Denmark, their ages ranging from 17 to 52.

The remit of the Council has been changed since it was first proposed and is now seen by CCP primarily as a route for players to make requests for changes and improvements to the game mechanics, presentation, and game content of Eve Online.


Funnily enough, the CSM was part of the knee-jerk reaction to the pressure caused by the scandal

As to why, you would prefer to be blissfully ignorant while they do it again?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#194 - 2012-05-04 00:08:48 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
According to Tippia almost all "Null Sec" players have alts in High Sec.
Not really according to me — according to the nullsec players.

Quote:
Also, according to Tippia, anyone who spends any time at all outside of their favorite Sec., High/Low/Null is not really that sec.
Nope, that is not what I'm saying.

Quote:
So obviously it is true that:
99% of players ¬(Nullsec)
Unknown. What we do know with absolute certainty is that the 70% highsec character population means that fewer than 70% of the players are highsec players.

Nice strawman, though.

Mr Epeen wrote:
"I destroyed the last MMO I worked on" is not going to look good on Soundwave's résumé.
Which MMO would that be and how would he go about destroying it?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#195 - 2012-05-04 00:11:15 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:


Market bots are a product of stupid 0.01 ISK mechanics.

This could be fixed but Dev is busy making sure his Null Sec buddies can have 2000 ship fights.


Yet they cant do the same for Jita

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#196 - 2012-05-04 00:11:46 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
30% Null?
No. 30% low/null.

Quote:
Again, since we *can't* know the total break down of people/accounts/characters who have interests in Null, or those who have interests in Hi-sec - the total numbers might as well be made up out of whole cloth.
No. We can still say with complete certainty that the number is much larger than the 30% (actually 34.7%, but it's not as round and easy to remember). Why? Because we know for a fact that these people have alts in highsec, and we know for a fact that the “highsec” players do not have corresponding low/null alts, because that would mean they're not highsec players by very definition. Highsec player is an exclusive category (the whole point of being a highsec player is that you're only in highsec); low/nullsec are inclusive categories (just because you're in low/null doesn't mean you don't have a highsec alt for various convenient purposes). Thus we know that the highsec category can only ever lose members and the number can only ever go down as potential members fail to adhere to that exclusivity.

Quote:
And the assumption your making, is that the number of players residing in Hi-Sec *don't* have an equal number of alt accounts - thereby totally cancelling out the "low/0.0" alts numbers.
No, because the assumption I'm making makes the alts of highseccers irrelevant because we're not counting how many are in that exclusive category — we're counting how many are not. That's the whole beauty of an exclusive category: it gives you a hard upper bound and an easy way to whittle that number down. The alts of the highseccers do not cancel anything out — they're already counted and are irrelevant for the number we're interested in.



A Null Bear would be torn into little pieces in Low Sec and the wolves would then spit up his corpse cause it was unworthy of being devoured. Unless he is rolling with the 24/7 1000 Capital Ship blob hot-drop crew.

The small pirate bands and "lone wolfs" in low-sec do no want to be considered "the same" as Null Seccers.

They are not the same. They are not even remotely the same and you are basically lying to call their interests "the same" as a Null Bear.

If they can make it in Low Sec then they COULD be in a Null Sec Alliance IF THEY WANTED TO BE.

So again, stop with the lying.

I know, why don't you do a poll on how "cool" Low Seccers think Blob warfare is.

NOTE:
Collapsing space into one point with instant teleports for massive capital fleets is an example of extremely poor design.

Hi, I have done exploration in low sec, high sec, sov null sec and npc null sec. I have also raided wormholes out of high, low and null.

Quite simply your post is utter rubbish. Low sec is easy to live in. Nothing with a cloak will ever caught, you can move around scanning with impunity, large swathes of it are mostly empty with a station in every single system... The list goes on.

Please do not post on topics with which you have no experience, it wastes our time, makes you look stupid and is nearly as bad as outright trolling.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#197 - 2012-05-04 00:16:28 UTC
I'd also like to add that as an ex-director of a 350 man low sec pirate alliance I can assure you our interests do largely coincide with those of null sec players. Perhaps a little bit of hate over raiden controlling low sec tech moons due to force projection, but by and large our interests coincide.

As I have changed over the last year from low sec pirate, through to low sec care bear, null sec care bear and finally an NPC null care bear my interests and the interests of those around me have remained markedly constant.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2012-05-04 00:18:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
According to Tippia almost all "Null Sec" players have alts in High Sec.
Not really according to me — according to the nullsec players.

Quote:
Also, according to Tippia, anyone who spends any time at all outside of their favorite Sec., High/Low/Null is not really that sec.
Nope, that is not what I'm saying.

Quote:
So obviously it is true that:
99% of players ¬(Nullsec)
Unknown. What we do know with absolute certainty is that the 70% highsec character population means that fewer than 70% of the players are highsec players.

Nice strawman, though.

Mr Epeen wrote:
"I destroyed the last MMO I worked on" is not going to look good on Soundwave's résumé.
Which MMO would that be and how would he go about destroying it?


And how do we know, if we wish to be as deliberately obtuse as Tippia, that 99% of all players are not High Sec players that spend the entirety of their time in High Sec?

Maybe most of those other 30% out of High Sec characters are just alts that got lost in another sec and now the Care Bear is to scared to log into it to move it out of the scary sec? I've heard that if you look at a Goon ship in Null Sec the Goon eats your brain straight through your monitor. That the Goons are actually brain eating zombies. Read their posts. They all want us to "join them in Null Sec". The poor grammar... the mindless worship of "the Master".... could it be true? Are they really brain eating zombies? So really, maybe the Care Bear is just to scared to log into the alt to move it out of the scary sec.

So since the High Sec Care Bear never logs onto his lost alt, he is in fact still a High Sec care bear. Thus we have no way of knowing that 99% of players aren't actually High Sec!

You are right Tippia, ignoring facts and just making stuff up sure is fun.

But what if the Goons really are Brain Eating Zombies?

I'm staying in Wormhole space from now on! They won't get me!
Vince Snetterton
#199 - 2012-05-04 00:21:06 UTC
I am sorry I started this thread.

It always looks like a better idea the night before, but once the null sec zealot teams unleash their propaganda teams, the message gets lost in the noise.

I guess the only way I can get my voice heard is with my pocketbook.

Let's see how smug all these null sec sociopaths in goons/test/CCP dev team will be CCP starts having a hard look at the subs lapsing.

Most will rejoice at the loss of a high sec player base, until CCP finance steps in.
BTW, for those that have not read it, look up the head sociopath's current blog.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/230860/page/2

You can say that the null sec alliances are merely taking advantage of the game mechanics provided by CCP.
I choose to believe they are working IN CONJUNCTION with their null sec allies within CCP.

It matters not. I doubt I will be around to witness the carnage, and I expect many others will not as well.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2012-05-04 00:22:19 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Hi, I have done exploration in low sec, high sec, sov null sec and npc null sec. I have also raided wormholes out of high, low and null.

Quite simply your post is utter rubbish. Low sec is easy to live in. Nothing with a cloak will ever caught, you can move around scanning with impunity, large swathes of it are mostly empty with a station in every single system... The list goes on.

Please do not post on topics with which you have no experience, it wastes our time, makes you look stupid and is nearly as bad as outright trolling.


As compared to the Goon that told me that Null Mining in Null Alliance Space was more dangerous than High Sec Mining?

And I'm aware that cloaks with proper fits are fine and most people are to lazy to scan and Local is more effective than High Sec.

The fact remains that Low Sec is WAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY more dangerous than Alliance Controlled Null Sec. Like way.