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Lets Talk About Inferno’s [Questionable] New Wardec Mechanics

First post
Author
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#81 - 2012-05-03 21:45:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Alt padding your corp to increase dec shielding is a big problem. I keep saying it over and over again and never get a response. If this becomes the new default behavior, I'm not even going to say "I told you so." My language towards CCP will be much more colorful.

Maybe players in your corp need to have 5 mil SP or something before they are factored into the war dec cost.


Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Would be good to see every corp/alliance in highsec stuffed to the gills with people, easiest way to convince people an idea is bad is to prove it.

Great. So what... they release a f***ed up price calculation system... 3 months later everyone agrees it's being abused... 9 months after that CCP realizes it... 2 years later they get around to fixing it again? F*** this merry go round where to I get off? It's been hosed for years and I'm sick of waiting for them to finally fix the damn dec system! Why can't we just get it right?

The finest highsec pvp corps are working on it. First though, it may be necessary to prove a lack of alternatives.

Start by removing ganking as the most obvious source of non-consentual pvp apart from wardecs.

Well you lost me all together... guess I'm pretty dumb. "The finest highsec pvp corps..." I was unaware of anyone even using wardecs right now, let alone their being a rating system for them. ...then I realized your a goon and you dec without decs. Fair enough.

Lack of alternatives? What do you mean by this? Alternatives to shielding by padding corps with alts? ...or alternatives to pricing / prerequisites of deccing?

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#82 - 2012-05-03 21:53:01 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Well you lost me all together... guess I'm pretty dumb. "The finest highsec pvp corps..." I was unaware of anyone even using wardecs right now, let alone their being a rating system for them. ...then I realized your a goon and you dec without decs. Fair enough.

Lack of alternatives? What do you mean by this? Alternatives to shielding by padding corps with alts? ...or alternatives to pricing / prerequisites of deccing?

Highsec pvp corps like I think Moar Tears, 0rphanage, NOIR. and whichever other ones. Some of them docked too fast to actually fight, but I think they are pvp corps.

As for alternatives, I mean instead of playing via the wardec system, many players in highsec simply choose to gank. In a sarcastic manner, I was pushing for people to be gankproof in highsec, meaning that all attenton would be on wardecs rather than CONCORD response time and such.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#83 - 2012-05-03 21:56:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Well you lost me all together... guess I'm pretty dumb. "The finest highsec pvp corps..." I was unaware of anyone even using wardecs right now, let alone their being a rating system for them. ...then I realized your a goon and you dec without decs. Fair enough.

Lack of alternatives? What do you mean by this? Alternatives to shielding by padding corps with alts? ...or alternatives to pricing / prerequisites of deccing?

Highsec pvp corps like I think Moar Tears, 0rphanage, NOIR. and whichever other ones. Some of them docked too fast to actually fight, but I think they are pvp corps.

As for alternatives, I mean instead of playing via the wardec system, many players in highsec simply choose to gank. In a sarcastic manner, I was pushing for people to be gankproof in highsec, meaning that all attenton would be on wardecs rather than CONCORD response time and such.

Well... when you have goon numbers ganking is a viable tactic. Smaller corps, those of us in it for ISK more then tears, need something sustainable, and that makes everyone in empire invulnerable (particularly their stations) in lieu of current dec shielding. Less interested in CONCORD more interested in finding the weak, starving gazelles on the savannah... and there are great herds of them in empire atm.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#84 - 2012-05-03 21:56:40 UTC
Gogela wrote:


Great. So what... they release a f***ed up price calculation system... 3 months later everyone agrees it's being abused... 9 months after that CCP realizes it... 2 years later they get around to fixing it again? F*** this merry go round where to I get off? It's been hosed for years and I'm sick of waiting for them to finally fix the damn dec system! Why can't we just get it right?


We are lucky, because GW2 will be out with real and fun and competitive PvP well before those 2 years.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#85 - 2012-05-03 21:57:41 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Well... when you have goon numbers ganking is a viable tactic. Smaller corps, those of us in it for ISK more then tears, need something sustainable, and that makes everyone in empire invulnerable (particularly their stations) in lieu of current dec shielding. Less interested in CONCORD more interested in finding the weak, starving gazelles on the savannah... and there are great herds of them in empire atm.

True enough.

Why chase the weak starving ones when there's fat and sluggish ones sleeping b the river?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#86 - 2012-05-03 21:59:57 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Well... when you have goon numbers ganking is a viable tactic. Smaller corps, those of us in it for ISK more then tears, need something sustainable, and that makes everyone in empire invulnerable (particularly their stations) in lieu of current dec shielding. Less interested in CONCORD more interested in finding the weak, starving gazelles on the savannah... and there are great herds of them in empire atm.

True enough.

Why chase the weak starving ones when there's fat and sluggish ones sleeping b the river?

Just because tears aren't the primary objective doesn't mean we don't appreciate them. But yes plenty of fattys hanging out w/ the gazelles.. we'll take them too. Why not?

Signatures should be used responsibly...

NatteFrost85
KakeMafiaen
#87 - 2012-05-03 22:08:37 UTC
all i see is finaly a step in the right direction to remove the 1-5 man corps who has no balls and only wardecs defencless indy/pve corps.


Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-05-03 22:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
NatteFrost85 wrote:
all i see is finaly a step in the right direction to remove the 1-5 man corps who has no balls and only wardecs defencless indy/pve corps.





It's the exact opposite and you have no idea that it is.
It is cheaper to wardec smaller organizations, then larger ones. CCP has made an incentive to keep doing exactly what you are condemning. Please use your brain more so I can stop explaining this to everyone Ugh

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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#89 - 2012-05-03 22:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Gogela wrote:

Well... when you have goon numbers ganking is a viable tactic. Smaller corps, those of us in it for ISK more then tears, need something sustainable, and that makes everyone in empire invulnerable (particularly their stations) in lieu of current dec shielding. Less interested in CONCORD more interested in finding the weak, starving gazelles on the savannah... and there are great herds of them in empire atm.


It's dangerous to go alone, take this.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#90 - 2012-05-03 22:31:30 UTC
NatteFrost85 wrote:
all i see is finaly a step in the right direction to remove the 1-5 man corps who has no balls and only wardecs defencless indy/pve corps.
They won't be affected in the slightest, since those defenceless targets will be just as defenceless after the change and will, if anything, be even more attractive targets since they'll be much cheaper and easier to attack.

Now, normally, I'd say that a corp that is defenceless should be nuked into oblivion simply because they've made the bad choice of setting themselves up for a lose/lose situation — being defenceless means they're not actually ready to have a corp to begin with. However, this change opens up a new avenue for them: they can congregate in a massive decshielding alliance (hell, I'll offer my services just to profit from/break the system again, like I did with decshedding) and that means that the system is inherently broken right out the gate, in pretty much exactly the same way as it was broken before — the kind of breakage the change was intended to fix.

It also means that the entire merc marketplace that was rolled out to great fanfares instantly becomes meaningless: anyone large enough to be able to afford mercs that can actually make a difference will already be large enough not to be a viable target for attacks (and will most likely be large enough that they don't need mercs). Anyone small enough to need mercs will not be able to afford enough to fight even a single war, and will most certainly not be able to pay enough for the sheer number of decs that they will receive just because they're such an easy target of opportunity.
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#91 - 2012-05-03 22:35:48 UTC
We need wardecs to shoot ships in Eve?

Ok miners :) wardecs it is :)



Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#92 - 2012-05-03 22:40:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
NatteFrost85 wrote:
all i see is finaly a step in the right direction to remove the 1-5 man corps who has no balls and only wardecs defencless indy/pve corps.
They won't be affected in the slightest, since those defenceless targets will be just as defenceless after the change and will, if anything, be even more attractive targets since they'll be much cheaper and easier to attack.

Now, normally, I'd say that a corp that is defenceless should be nuked into oblivion simply because they've made the bad choice of setting themselves up for a lose/lose situation — being defenceless means they're not actually ready to have a corp to begin with. However, this change opens up a new avenue for them: they can congregate in a massive decshielding alliance (hell, I'll offer my services just to profit from/break the system again, like I did with decshedding) and that means that the system is inherently broken right out the gate, in pretty much exactly the same way as it was broken before — the kind of breakage the change was intended to fix.

It also means that the entire merc marketplace that was rolled out to great fanfares instantly becomes meaningless: anyone large enough to be able to afford mercs that can actually make a difference will already be large enough not to be a viable target for attacks (and will most likely be large enough that they don't need mercs). Anyone small enough to need mercs will not be able to afford enough to fight even a single war, and will most certainly not be able to pay enough for the sheer number of decs that they will receive just because they're such an easy target of opportunity.

This is starting to sound like the whole "sov holding alliance" thing that happens in nullsec.

Or the "tech & supercaps" thing people discuss all the time as tech prices get jacked up more and more

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#93 - 2012-05-03 22:40:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Now, normally, I'd say that a corp that is defenceless should be nuked into oblivion simply because they've made the bad choice of setting themselves up for a lose/lose situation — being defenceless means they're not actually ready to have a corp to begin with. However, this change opens up a new avenue for them: they can congregate in a massive decshielding alliance (hell, I'll offer my services just to profit from/break the system again, like I did with decshedding) and that means that the system is inherently broken right out the gate, in pretty much exactly the same way as it was broken before — the kind of breakage the change was intended to fix.

This ^

...and I agree that if they all the "defenseless" corps band together for protection that is fine. That's what they should be doing anyway... though I'd also argue that a defenseless alliance is just as dec-able and will be deced straight away... that's all normal and fine. It's the alt padding that's a problem. The bottom line is you can't have a corp and be defenseless. Anyone who predicated their existence on highsec invulnerability based themselves on a broken mechanic. If there's going to be an actual fix to the dec system reality is going to drop kick you in the sack, and I think there's a few isk to be made on that reality check. I just hope the dec change is actually a fix and not one that allows shielding by a different method. If you want a dec shield it should exist... it's called hiring or aligning with a PvP corp. That should be your only defense... not skirting war altogether.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#94 - 2012-05-03 22:55:38 UTC
Gogela wrote:
...and I agree that if they all the "defenseless" corps band together for protection that is fine. That's what they should be doing anyway... though I'd also argue that a defenseless alliance is just as dec-able and will be deced straight away... that's all normal and fine. It's the alt padding that's a problem. The bottom line is you can't have a corp and be defenseless. Anyone who predicated their existence on highsec invulnerability based themselves on a broken mechanic. If there's going to be an actual fix to the dec system reality is going to drop kick you in the sack, and I think there's a few isk to be made on that reality check. I just hope the dec change is actually a fix and not one that allows shielding by a different method. If you want a dec shield it should exist... it's called hiring or aligning with a PvP corp. That should be your only defense... not skirting war altogether.

Well I guess they don't want to blob.

But really, it's because their NPC corp alt taxes go to pay CONCORD, the best PVPers around.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#95 - 2012-05-03 22:58:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

But really, it's because their NPC corp alt taxes go to pay CONCORD, the best PVPers around.


Seriously. Serpentis is pretty good too.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#96 - 2012-05-03 23:05:59 UTC
Twulf wrote:

EVE is a hybrd Sandbox game Through and Through. If it was a true Sandbox game then any play style would be valid. Even solo play would be a valid option. Even in a Multiplayer game, if it is a Sandbox, solo play would be valid.


I don't think Tippia is saying you shouldn't be able to solo. Only that while playing a Sandbox MMO, you're free to try to do what you want, other players who are also free to try what they want and might mess up what you want to do. A real Sandbox isn't 1000s of players each with their own little box of sand to do with as they wish, it's 1000s of players all in one box playing with the same sand together. They can be solo, but they still have to deal with the 1000s of others in the same box.

As to what EVE is, CCP describe it as a Sandbox, not a hybrid. Whether they have delivered a real Sandbox is another question.

In regards to the OP, there was a dev post somewhere saying the Wardec system on test is the old system and they have something new in the works.
Fishmaskle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-05-03 23:19:22 UTC
I don't think I have seen a thread by the OP that doesn't start with a whine followed by calling people that don't see his point of view as perfect, stupid/idiots.

Though they do provide a bit of entertainment on the slow end of a workday...
If I helped you out, Technical Issue, enemy gank, popped your poor fit, hit the "Like" button.
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-05-03 23:23:16 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Twulf wrote:

EVE is a hybrd Sandbox game Through and Through. If it was a true Sandbox game then any play style would be valid. Even solo play would be a valid option. Even in a Multiplayer game, if it is a Sandbox, solo play would be valid.


I don't think Tippia is saying you shouldn't be able to solo. Only that while playing a Sandbox MMO, you're free to try to do what you want, other players who are also free to try what they want and might mess up what you want to do. A real Sandbox isn't 1000s of players each with their own little box of sand to do with as they wish, it's 1000s of players all in one box playing with the same sand together. They can be solo, but they still have to deal with the 1000s of others in the same box.

As to what EVE is, CCP describe it as a Sandbox, not a hybrid. Whether they have delivered a real Sandbox is another question.

In regards to the OP, there was a dev post somewhere saying the Wardec system on test is the old system and they have something new in the works.



Yet goons, test and CFC with CCP have decided that unless you want to be a drone in an alliance of thousands you have no place in eve, even if all you want to do is mine in high-sec.

They have also decided that unless you got 24 hours to spend playing this game you should not be able to enjoy it anymore.

Thanks.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#99 - 2012-05-03 23:33:51 UTC
Fishmaskle wrote:
I don't think I have seen a thread by the OP that doesn't start with a whine followed by calling people that don't see his point of view as perfect, stupid/idiots.

Though they do provide a bit of entertainment on the slow end of a workday...

So would you consider it a whine or a troll?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#100 - 2012-05-03 23:34:01 UTC
Twulf wrote:
If it was a true Sandbox game then any play style would be valid. Even solo play would be a valid option. Even in a Multiplayer game, if it is a Sandbox, solo play would be valid.
…and as luck would have it, it is valid because EVE is a sandbox game — there is no “hybrid” about it. Nothing in the game forces you to not solo. What makes soloing a bad idea is the fact that, being a sandbox, the other kids will have banded together to take all the sand and will hit you with their spades (and they have an awful lot of spades) if you try to take any of it back.

What makes your play style “invalid” (which is the wrong word — “suboptimal” or “inefficient” would be a better choice) is the fact that the social construct that has grown out of this sandbox has yielded an environment where you will not be able to keep up with the Joneses if you choose to do everything yourself. This does not make the game any less of a sandbox — quite the opposite: it is an effect of the game being a sandbox, not a cause of some kind of non-sandbox:iness.

Fannie Maes wrote:
Yet goons, test and CFC with CCP have decided that unless you want to be a drone in an alliance of thousands you have no place in eve, even if all you want to do is mine in high-sec.
Lol Humour. You know, you really should vary your routine a bit more, because this kind of completely-detached-from-reality nonsense wears thin very quickly.

Put another way: no, they haven't.