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Tilting at windmills

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Hamshoe
Doomheim
#161 - 2012-05-03 20:14:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It's not really blowing smoke — it's extrapolating from known numbers with known properties (i.e. that highsec players are exclusive in terms of where their characters exist, whereas low/null players are not). It's the fact that we're not talking about mutually exclusive categories that let us arrive at that number and, even if that's still an estimate, we can at any rate say with absolute certainty that the actual proportion of highsec players is lower than 67%.


Ok, maybe not blowing smoke... how about "pulling it out of your special place that smells like yesterdays lunch"?

Unless of course you're defining your terms with the definite purpose of pretending to support your conclusion. There's a technical term for that.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#162 - 2012-05-03 20:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
30% Null?
No. 30% low/null.

Quote:
Again, since we *can't* know the total break down of people/accounts/characters who have interests in Null, or those who have interests in Hi-sec - the total numbers might as well be made up out of whole cloth.
No. We can still say with complete certainty that the number is much larger than the 30% (actually 34.7%, but it's not as round and easy to remember). Why? Because we know for a fact that these people have alts in highsec, and we know for a fact that the “highsec” players do not have corresponding low/null alts, because that would mean they're not highsec players by very definition. Highsec player is an exclusive category (the whole point of being a highsec player is that you're only in highsec); low/nullsec are inclusive categories (just because you're in low/null doesn't mean you don't have a highsec alt for various convenient purposes). Thus we know that the highsec category can only ever lose members and the number can only ever go down as potential members fail to adhere to that exclusivity.

Quote:
And the assumption your making, is that the number of players residing in Hi-Sec *don't* have an equal number of alt accounts - thereby totally cancelling out the "low/0.0" alts numbers.
No, because the assumption I'm making makes the alts of highseccers irrelevant because we're not counting how many are in that exclusive category — we're counting how many are not. That's the whole beauty of an exclusive category: it gives you a hard upper bound and an easy way to whittle that number down. The alts of the highseccers do not cancel anything out — they're already counted and are irrelevant for the number we're interested in.
Destru Kaneda
Arzad Police Department
#163 - 2012-05-03 20:41:05 UTC
Puma man, he flies like a moron.

I like it best when the beats are naked.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2012-05-03 20:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
30% Null?
No. 30% low/null.

Quote:
Again, since we *can't* know the total break down of people/accounts/characters who have interests in Null, or those who have interests in Hi-sec - the total numbers might as well be made up out of whole cloth.
No. We can still say with complete certainty that the number is much larger than the 30% (actually 34.7%, but it's not as round and easy to remember). Why? Because we know for a fact that these people have alts in highsec, and we know for a fact that the “highsec” players do not have corresponding low/null alts, because that would mean they're not highsec players by very definition. Highsec player is an exclusive category (the whole point of being a highsec player is that you're only in highsec); low/nullsec are inclusive categories (just because you're in low/null doesn't mean you don't have a highsec alt for various convenient purposes). Thus we know that the highsec category can only ever lose members and the number can only ever go down as potential members fail to adhere to that exclusivity.

Quote:
And the assumption your making, is that the number of players residing in Hi-Sec *don't* have an equal number of alt accounts - thereby totally cancelling out the "low/0.0" alts numbers.
No, because the assumption I'm making makes the alts of highseccers irrelevant because we're not counting how many are in that exclusive category — we're counting how many are not. That's the whole beauty of an exclusive category: it gives you a hard upper bound and an easy way to whittle that number down. The alts of the highseccers do not cancel anything out — they're already counted and are irrelevant for the number we're interested in.



A Null Bear would be torn into little pieces in Low Sec and the wolves would then spit up his corpse cause it was unworthy of being devoured. Unless he is rolling with the 24/7 1000 Capital Ship blob hot-drop crew.

The small pirate bands and "lone wolfs" in low-sec do no want to be considered "the same" as Null Seccers.

They are not the same. They are not even remotely the same and you are basically lying to call their interests "the same" as a Null Bear.

If they can make it in Low Sec then they COULD be in a Null Sec Alliance IF THEY WANTED TO BE.

So again, stop with the lying.

I know, why don't you do a poll on how "cool" Low Seccers think Blob warfare is.

NOTE:
Collapsing space into one point with instant teleports for massive capital fleets is an example of extremely poor design.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#165 - 2012-05-03 20:49:22 UTC
Destru Kaneda wrote:
Puma man, he flies like a moron.

Not sure what this was in response to, but I approve nonetheless.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Commander Lurch
One Horse Trading
#166 - 2012-05-03 20:52:58 UTC
I agree eith the OP. I'm shutting 3 accounts after 6 years - this game has lost any depth and is becoming nothing more than a bunch of pew-pew.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#167 - 2012-05-03 20:53:38 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
They are not the same. They are not even remotely the same and you are basically lying to call their interests "the same" as a Null Bear.
Good thing that I'm not doing that, then.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#168 - 2012-05-03 20:58:39 UTC
Destru Kaneda wrote:
Puma man, he flies like a moron.


Man this goes in my thread here.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=104553

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#169 - 2012-05-03 21:18:02 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
30% Null?
No. 30% low/null.

Quote:
Again, since we *can't* know the total break down of people/accounts/characters who have interests in Null, or those who have interests in Hi-sec - the total numbers might as well be made up out of whole cloth.
No. We can still say with complete certainty that the number is much larger than the 30% (actually 34.7%, but it's not as round and easy to remember). Why? Because we know for a fact that these people have alts in highsec, and we know for a fact that the “highsec” players do not have corresponding low/null alts, because that would mean they're not highsec players by very definition. Highsec player is an exclusive category (the whole point of being a highsec player is that you're only in highsec); low/nullsec are inclusive categories (just because you're in low/null doesn't mean you don't have a highsec alt for various convenient purposes). Thus we know that the highsec category can only ever lose members and the number can only ever go down as potential members fail to adhere to that exclusivity.

Quote:
And the assumption your making, is that the number of players residing in Hi-Sec *don't* have an equal number of alt accounts - thereby totally cancelling out the "low/0.0" alts numbers.
No, because the assumption I'm making makes the alts of highseccers irrelevant because we're not counting how many are in that exclusive category — we're counting how many are not. That's the whole beauty of an exclusive category: it gives you a hard upper bound and an easy way to whittle that number down. The alts of the highseccers do not cancel anything out — they're already counted and are irrelevant for the number we're interested in.



A Null Bear would be torn into little pieces in Low Sec and the wolves would then spit up his corpse cause it was unworthy of being devoured. Unless he is rolling with the 24/7 1000 Capital Ship blob hot-drop crew.



Really? I found low sec to be a relaxing place after living in Curse, and I had a lovely 3 month holiday pirating.

In any case, Tippia is correct. It doesn't matter how many hi-sec alts high sec players have because we know the total number of characters in high sec anyway.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2012-05-03 21:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
They are not the same. They are not even remotely the same and you are basically lying to call their interests "the same" as a Null Bear.
Good thing that I'm not doing that, then.


So why do you count them together?

Oh, and the guy that says living in NPC Null is much harder than Low Sec.....

Well that is a good point, isn't it Tippia?

Can we really count NPC Null people as the same as PC Alliance Null Space people?

Totally different situation actually.

It seems we have to reduce the people actually in PC Alliance Null Space even further.

Well get to it, Tippia!
Hamshoe
Doomheim
#171 - 2012-05-03 21:29:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
We can still say with complete certainty that the number is much larger than the 30% (actually 34.7%, but it's not as round and easy to remember). Why? Because we know for a fact that these people have alts in highsec, and we know for a fact that the “highsec” players do not have corresponding low/null alts, because that would mean they're not highsec players by very definition.


I think you're inflating your numbers by counting anyone who's ever been through a low/null system as "not highsec" and assuming an unfounded number of "low/null" alts.

Perhaps we should turn the definition around and count low/null as only those who never go into high sec? After all, just because your highsec doesn't mean you never pop through low.

Does CCP publish a definition of those terms/player types? Because I'm pretty unpersuaded by yours.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#172 - 2012-05-03 21:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
So why do you count them together?
Because the number we're looking for is ¬(Highsec). Low, null, and w-space all satisfy this requirement.

The whole point is that people like to point to that 70% highsec population figure and grandiosely claim that highsec players are a majority. I'm saying that, no, they're most likely not, because we know for a fact that the number of highsec players is much lower than that — in fact, it could quite easily be as low as 30-40% if, for every non-highsec character, there is a highsec alt on the same account. Whether or not these three groups share interests is quite besides the point; what matters is that they're not part of the supposed highsec majority.

Quote:
Can we really count NPC Null people as the same as PC Alliance Null Space people?
Yes. Because both of them are in the ¬(Highsec) camp.

Hamshoe wrote:
Does CCP publish a definition of those terms/player types? Because I'm pretty unpersuaded by yours.
In the QENs, it was always a fairly simple “docked or flying in space in system of type X at the time of the census.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2012-05-03 21:44:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
So why do you count them together?
Because the number we're looking for is ¬(Highsec). Low, null, and w-space all satisfy this requirement.

The whole point is that people like to point to that 70% highsec population figure and grandiosely claim that highsec players are a majority. I'm saying that, no, they're most likely not, because we know for a fact that the number of highsec players is much lower than that — in fact, it could quite easily be as low as 30-40% if, for every non-highsec character, there is a highsec alt on the same account. Whether or not these three groups share interests is quite besides the point; what matters is that they're not part of the supposed highsec majority.

Quote:
Can we really count NPC Null people as the same as PC Alliance Null Space people?
Yes. Because both of them are in the ¬(Highsec) camp.


How many people with a Null Sec alt spend most of their time trading Jita or running missions?

If someone spends 75% of his time running missions with one character and 25% of his time mining in Null Sec with the other, then is he Null Sec or High Sec?

Most people don't argue with women. I treat people equally. We can go round and round all you want.

Not half as annoying as dealing with the average American.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-05-03 21:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Tippia wrote:
whole buncha stuff.

No, but what you are doing is disregarding the:

Cap/Super Cap Ship Alts (not everyone who sits in one is a *main*),
Logistics (freighter/jump-freighter),
scout/cyno/whatever alts that draw the ultimate number of null/lowsec residents down as well...
And where do you get the "34.7%" number?

From Dr. E: Low/Null/WH = 28.6% total...

Null = 15%
Low = 8.2%
WH = 5.4%
(Edit to add: Ahhhhhh counting only the >5M sp toons!).
So not all "null sec" residents alts necessarily sit in Hi-Sec...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#175 - 2012-05-03 21:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
How many people with a Null Sec alt spend most of their time trading Jita or running missions?
Doesn't particularly matter.

Quote:
If someone spends 75% of his time running missions with one character and 25% of his time mining in Null Sec with the other, then is he Null Sec or High Sec?
¬(Highsec) for the simple reason that he obviously can stand the idea of being outside of highsec.

Quote:
Most people don't argue with women.
So?

Asuri Kinnes wrote:
No, but what you are doing is disregarding the:

Cap/Super Cap Ship Alts (not everyone who sits in one is a *main*),
Logistics (freighter/jump-freighter),
scout/cyno/whatever alts that draw the ultimate number of null/lowsec residents down as well...
No, I'm not, because they all fall into the category of ¬(Highsec). Again, that's the beauty of using an exclusive category, and what I'm saying is simply that the mere fact that null/lowsec players have highsec alts means that the actual percentage of highsec players must be lower than the 70% in those graphs. How much lower? Well, that's up to what ratios between higsec and non-highsec characters on those accounts. A simple 1:1 ratio (which isn't much of a stretch to imagine) would put the number of highsec accounts at as low as 30–40%. This is where the alt uses you mention might be a factor, but it doesn't change what we know for sure: that highsec does not actually account for 70% of the accounts.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#176 - 2012-05-03 23:17:07 UTC
The stats in QEN show a picture of where the pilots actually are when the snapshot is taken. Of course the sooper dooper null sec heroes want to diminish the statistical picture so that high sec players are not as huge a percentage of the total population as the real statistics show. Because of course only the sooper dooper null sec players know anything. The last Quarterly Economic newsletter I can find is from 2010 and shows that 85% of the pilots in the game were in high sec at the time of the snapshot.

Of course I am arguing from facts and not from guesstistics, so I am undoubtedly wrong. The truth is that an embarrassingly large percentage of EVE stays in high sec and does care about the other parts of the game. Those who don't like this statistic are desperate to spin the argument in some other direction. Because high sec players are very low on the social scale.

Not that it matters. CCP does not listen to high sec players. They can't, because they have their collective heads up the GOON butt.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#177 - 2012-05-03 23:22:51 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Of course I am arguing from facts and not from guesstistics, so I am undoubtedly wrong. The truth is that an embarrassingly large percentage of EVE stays in high sec and does care about the other parts of the game.
…but the thing is that that “embarrassingly large percentage” is a whole lot smaller than the simple population percentage shows. This is not a guesstimate — it's also a fact. The guesstimate is only how much smaller it is.

Right now, 70% of characters is in highsec. That means 30% aren't. That means that fewer than 70% of accounts are highsec players. A simple 1:1 highsec-alt-to-nonhighsec-alt ratio suddenly reduces the highsec player percentage to a mere 40%…
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2012-05-03 23:34:11 UTC
This really seems like the classic "Highsec doesn't give a rat's ass, they're off doing their own boring things solo around the galaxy" until something is changed then it becomes "We don't like any competition or confrontation whatsoever so instead of adapting and working together and moving to low/null and raking in the dough we're going to stubbornly sit here in high sec where we make crap isk and cry about it"

Heard it here first folks. Oh wait it's all over the place.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Shian Yang
#179 - 2012-05-03 23:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shian Yang
Ban Bindy wrote:
The stats in QEN show a picture of where the pilots actually are when the snapshot is taken. Of course the sooper dooper null sec heroes want to diminish the statistical picture so that high sec players are not as huge a percentage of the total population as the real statistics show. Because of course only the sooper dooper null sec players know anything. The last Quarterly Economic newsletter I can find is from 2010 and shows that 85% of the pilots in the game were in high sec at the time of the snapshot.

Of course I am arguing from facts and not from guesstistics, so I am undoubtedly wrong. The truth is that an embarrassingly large percentage of EVE stays in high sec and does care about the other parts of the game. Those who don't like this statistic are desperate to spin the argument in some other direction. Because high sec players are very low on the social scale.

Not that it matters. CCP does not listen to high sec players. They can't, because they have their collective heads up the GOON butt.


Greetings capsuleer,

To believe what you have said I must believe that:


  • The company is willing to ignore a major percentage of their players to the detriment of their business
  • The company is willing to pander to a minority within the population to the detriment of their business
  • The company still shows positive growth after doing so
  • The various conspiracy theories and anti-Goon Swarm Federation rhetoric has some basis in fact
  • Sufficient capsuleers residing under the safe wing of CONCORD are upset at this to make change happen


I cannot believe all of those, thus I reject your entire premise. The company remains viable and they are growing.

Regards,

Shian Yang
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2012-05-03 23:46:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Of course I am arguing from facts and not from guesstistics, so I am undoubtedly wrong. The truth is that an embarrassingly large percentage of EVE stays in high sec and does care about the other parts of the game.
…but the thing is that that “embarrassingly large percentage” is a whole lot smaller than the simple population percentage shows. This is not a guesstimate — it's also a fact. The guesstimate is only how much smaller it is.

Right now, 70% of characters is in highsec. That means 30% aren't. That means that fewer than 70% of accounts are highsec players. A simple 1:1 highsec-alt-to-nonhighsec-alt ratio suddenly reduces the highsec player percentage to a mere 40%…


The corporation I currently operate out of is quite alt heavy with each player having:
2-3 x high sec logistic alts in either in alt corps or NPC corps
2-3 x high sec PI alts in NPC corps
2-3 x high sec market alts either in alt corps or NPC corps
1-2 x high sec incursion runners either in alt corps or NPC corps
1-2 x high sec spy/gank alts in Empire Corps
2-3 x 0.0 "mains"

This might sound extreme but as the situation dictates alts are scrapped and new ones made or de-subscribed until needed - it is pretty common and makes the bandying around of 0.0 vs High Sec numbers redundant.