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Tilting at windmills

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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#141 - 2012-05-03 18:35:27 UTC
Roime wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I am not sure how CCP sees Eve as serving the majority of its customers when it allows a small group to ruin the game for the majority.

Is this really what is happening?


Nope.

Majority is enjoying the game and understand that in a game about insterstellar combat for resources and power, wardecs are part of the game.



So majority is an exaggeration but for a sizable segment, definitely. If you think that miners aren't driven out of Eve when the current mechanics let ganking in such an unbalanced fashion then I have to disagree. Please note that word...unbalanced.....

Should Eve allow ganking, griefing and all manner of asshattery? Yes, that is Eve. But is Eve, the way it currently works correctly balanced with reasonable mechanics for aggression and war? No. CCP has already said as much with the next expansion.

Has Eve, with the current game mechanics and risk/reward balance allowed a small group of players to drive other groups of players out of Eve. Yes. That is my point.

I'm not here rage quitting Eve because of war or ganking, I am saying in response to the OP.

1. There was at least one CSM elected to represent high sec in CSM 7.
2. I agree current game mechanics make it possible for a small group of players to unfairly victimize a larger group and that this affects CCPs bottom line in an adverse manner.

All I can say at this point at least one person on the CSM 7 (more actually) are trying to represent high sec and I am excited to see CCP working on making it better in high sec with the next expansion with better war and aggression mechanics.

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#142 - 2012-05-03 18:37:34 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Given that the silent majority of the game, namely high sec players, don't follow the forums, this thread is pointless.
But I feel like Don Quixote tonight, and am indeed mad as hell.

CCP acknowledges through their own numbers that slightly over 70% of all players in game are high sec.
Yet we have essentially one person, Kelduum from E-UNI who is ostensibly high sec, and E-UNI is actually migrating a lot of players to null sec.

In any case, since the the null sec zealots have realized the past couple years what a powerful meta-game tool the CSM is, they have done everything they can to control it and bend CCP to their will.

If high sec players want any control over their game, they have to become organized, and form a strong voting bloc.
Consider:

There are 400,000 paid accounts on TQ.
That is approx 1 million chars.

goons and test, the 2 largest alliances in the game, add up to 14,000 chars.
That is 1.4 percent of the entire game base.
Assume they all have 3 accounts.
That makes it a whopping 4.2%, yet they with their control of the game and the direction of the game is far, far more than the demographics show.

If even 10% of high sec players were actually engaged in the political process, we could dominate the CSM, and start pushing back at all the attacks by the null sec zealot group in game and within CCP.

We need to stat organizing now, for the next CSM.

But who am I kidding. It won't happen. High sec players will just quit once all the changes coming down the pipe are implemented. Heck, I will likely have packed it in myself, rather than waste my time fighting lost battles in and out of game.

High sec players, consider this a warning for you: Organize now. The next CSM may be your last chance to save high sec in some playable format.


Uhm, did you follow the CSM 7 elections. I ran for high sec and won a seat. I definitely feel your frustration. In 24 hours my alliance will be at war with the goons for speaking out about their leaders poor behavior. I am not sure how CCP sees Eve as serving the majority of its customers when it allows a small group to ruin the game for the majority.

We can only hope new aggression and war mechanics might level the playing field.

Issler


You forgot to mention your own poor behaviour, for which you were also required to apologise in public.


For speaking in a manner that implied that I spoke for all the CSM 7. Not at all for what I said about the indecent in question. And I definitely wasn't "required" in any sense of the word. I chose to out of respect to my fellow CSM 7.

Issler
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#143 - 2012-05-03 18:39:19 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Given that the silent majority of the game, namely high sec players, don't follow the forums, this thread is pointless.
But I feel like Don Quixote tonight, and am indeed mad as hell.

CCP acknowledges through their own numbers that slightly over 70% of all players in game are high sec.
Yet we have essentially one person, Kelduum from E-UNI who is ostensibly high sec, and E-UNI is actually migrating a lot of players to null sec.

In any case, since the the null sec zealots have realized the past couple years what a powerful meta-game tool the CSM is, they have done everything they can to control it and bend CCP to their will.

If high sec players want any control over their game, they have to become organized, and form a strong voting bloc.
Consider:

There are 400,000 paid accounts on TQ.
That is approx 1 million chars.

goons and test, the 2 largest alliances in the game, add up to 14,000 chars.
That is 1.4 percent of the entire game base.
Assume they all have 3 accounts.
That makes it a whopping 4.2%, yet they with their control of the game and the direction of the game is far, far more than the demographics show.

If even 10% of high sec players were actually engaged in the political process, we could dominate the CSM, and start pushing back at all the attacks by the null sec zealot group in game and within CCP.

We need to stat organizing now, for the next CSM.

But who am I kidding. It won't happen. High sec players will just quit once all the changes coming down the pipe are implemented. Heck, I will likely have packed it in myself, rather than waste my time fighting lost battles in and out of game.

High sec players, consider this a warning for you: Organize now. The next CSM may be your last chance to save high sec in some playable format.


Uhm, did you follow the CSM 7 elections. I ran for high sec and won a seat. I definitely feel your frustration. In 24 hours my alliance will be at war with the goons for speaking out about their leaders poor behavior. I am not sure how CCP sees Eve as serving the majority of its customers when it allows a small group to ruin the game for the majority.

We can only hope new aggression and war mechanics might level the playing field.

Issler


You forgot to mention your own poor behaviour, for which you were also required to apologise in public.


For speaking in a manner that implied that I spoke for all the CSM 7. Not at all for what I said about the indecent in question. And I definitely wasn't "required" in any sense of the word. I chose to out of respect to my fellow CSM 7.

Issler


I heard that you also refused to cooperate with the rest of the CSM when discussing the whole incident. You were collaborating with someone who admittedly scammed people for their votes. Is this true?

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-05-03 18:54:56 UTC
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Yup. Read Soundwaves little stinkbomb on "Inferno and Datacores" Page 7 in GD about moving T2 towards Low and Null (yes, another Goon ISK River like POCO's).

Me and 3 accounts are out of here after 2 1/2 years if that happens.

I'm with you bud. Sign me up.

Hell sign Thundering Herd up.


The THUNDERING HERD 2 dudes 15 alts ooooookaaaaaaay
please form a big hisec coalition so that the null guys can wardec yall all at once


Would that let us gank Goons in Jita?

Oh yeah, that's a great idea!
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2012-05-03 19:16:47 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Given that the silent majority of the game, namely high sec players, don't follow the forums, this thread is pointless.
But I feel like Don Quixote tonight, and am indeed mad as hell.

CCP acknowledges through their own numbers that slightly over 70% of all players in game are high sec.
Yet we have essentially one person, Kelduum from E-UNI who is ostensibly high sec, and E-UNI is actually migrating a lot of players to null sec.

In any case, since the the null sec zealots have realized the past couple years what a powerful meta-game tool the CSM is, they have done everything they can to control it and bend CCP to their will.

If high sec players want any control over their game, they have to become organized, and form a strong voting bloc.
Consider:

There are 400,000 paid accounts on TQ.
That is approx 1 million chars.

goons and test, the 2 largest alliances in the game, add up to 14,000 chars.
That is 1.4 percent of the entire game base.
Assume they all have 3 accounts.
That makes it a whopping 4.2%, yet they with their control of the game and the direction of the game is far, far more than the demographics show.

If even 10% of high sec players were actually engaged in the political process, we could dominate the CSM, and start pushing back at all the attacks by the null sec zealot group in game and within CCP.

We need to stat organizing now, for the next CSM.

But who am I kidding. It won't happen. High sec players will just quit once all the changes coming down the pipe are implemented. Heck, I will likely have packed it in myself, rather than waste my time fighting lost battles in and out of game.

High sec players, consider this a warning for you: Organize now. The next CSM may be your last chance to save high sec in some playable format.


The problem with your horrible thesis is that all nullsec players have one or three highsec alts, hence the percentage or ''true'' carebears cannot be estimated from the number of highsec characters.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2012-05-03 19:18:56 UTC
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Yup. Read Soundwaves little stinkbomb on "Inferno and Datacores" Page 7 in GD about moving T2 towards Low and Null (yes, another Goon ISK River like POCO's).


Love that btw, no conflict of interest there AT ALL

Its funny, I actually sat down and watched the TTH interview till the part where Soundwave was all but drooling over the possibility of destroying the T2 market
and I came away with the feeling that he sounds a lot like a Goon.


I'm going to cut through your tinfoil with some public domain information:
CCP Soundwave was a Goonfleet director
This is him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1sdTzj9iac

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#147 - 2012-05-03 19:20:19 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Yup. Read Soundwaves little stinkbomb on "Inferno and Datacores" Page 7 in GD about moving T2 towards Low and Null (yes, another Goon ISK River like POCO's).


Love that btw, no conflict of interest there AT ALL

Its funny, I actually sat down and watched the TTH interview till the part where Soundwave was all but drooling over the possibility of destroying the T2 market
and I came away with the feeling that he sounds a lot like a Goon.


I'm going to cut through your tinfoil with some public domain information:
CCP Soundwave was a Goonfleet director
This is him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1sdTzj9iac



ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2012-05-03 19:21:12 UTC
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#149 - 2012-05-03 19:22:14 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.



ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#150 - 2012-05-03 19:25:07 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.


We can only hope.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#151 - 2012-05-03 19:27:45 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.

He is already the Lead Content Generator for high-sec...

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#152 - 2012-05-03 19:29:03 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.

He is already the Lead Content Generator for high-sec...


He does design that content he generates as well.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2012-05-03 19:32:03 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.

He is already the Lead Content Generator for high-sec...



That's my point. CCP should just hire the man to write scenarios for live events and to play various faction warfare leaders.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2012-05-03 19:33:17 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
While we're at it this is CCP Sreegs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9BjwNmdn6U

If the trend is to be believed, The Mittani will become Lead Content Designer within the next two years.

He is already the Lead Content Generator for high-sec...


He does design that content he generates as well.


Not strictly true, the entire Goonswarm director team is pretty much a board of pure wizards.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#155 - 2012-05-03 19:40:44 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
And my original point was that we *only* know for sure the numbers that CCP has put out, and nothing else. 2.2 accounts (average) per player, and the % break down of where people live...

Everything else is speculation...
Even that is speculation. Not even CCP has a good number on how many accounts per player there are — the 2.2 number that is being passed around is the average number of characters per account. People have been trying to guesstimate the average number of accounts per player and arrived at something in the region of just below 2, but again, there is no official number for that statistic and even CCP themselves can only at best give a rough estimate.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#156 - 2012-05-03 19:41:44 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
The problem with your horrible thesis is that all nullsec players have one or three highsec alts, hence the percentage or ''true'' carebears cannot be estimated from the number of highsec characters.

And some hi-sec players have 3 - 7 or more alts (manufacturing, research, data cores and mission runners) - point is, all we *know* about populations in Eve is what CCP has released....

That about 67.3% of all characters reside in Hi-Sec...

Watch the economy presentation from fan fest...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-05-03 19:47:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
And my original point was that we *only* know for sure the numbers that CCP has put out, and nothing else. 2.2 accounts (average) per player, and the % break down of where people live...

Everything else is speculation...
Even that is speculation. Not even CCP has a good number on how many accounts per player there are — the 2.2 number that is being passed around is the average number of characters per account. People have been trying to guesstimate the average number of accounts per player and arrived at something in the region of just below 2, but again, there is no official number for that statistic and even CCP themselves can only at best give a rough estimate.

True that, that is why I'm saying "the only numbers we KNOW are the population breakdowns given by CCP". Anyone that claims "null - sec alts make up a significant portion of the hi-sec population" are blowing smoke...

Because no-one knows, neither the OP, you or I...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#158 - 2012-05-03 20:00:41 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
True that, that is why I'm saying "the only numbers we KNOW are the population breakdowns given by CCP". Anyone that claims "null - sec alts make up a significant portion of the hi-sec population" are blowing smoke...

Because no-one knows, neither the OP, you or I...
Fair enough. Those claims are just a matter of counting backwards, though, and relying on experiences. The neat thing is that we don't need to care about how many alts the highsec players have — we just need to get a feel for how many the null/alt players have and where those are placed. We don't even need to know the account per player number.

With an average 2.2 characters per account and how much value you can get of having a character in some highsec hub, it's not a particularly long stretch of the imagination to say that for every low/null character, there is an alt that sits in highsec. Suddenly, those 30% of null/sec characters translates into 60% low/null accounts.

It's not really blowing smoke — it's extrapolating from known numbers with known properties (i.e. that highsec players are exclusive in terms of where their characters exist, whereas low/null players are not). It's the fact that we're not talking about mutually exclusive categories that let us arrive at that number and, even if that's still an estimate, we can at any rate say with absolute certainty that the actual proportion of highsec players is lower than 67%.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#159 - 2012-05-03 20:04:54 UTC
hmm i used to be a high sec alt... untill my other alt got a carrier and now i make cynos in low sec... so who knows really its purley up to conjecture...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-05-03 20:11:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
True that, that is why I'm saying "the only numbers we KNOW are the population breakdowns given by CCP". Anyone that claims "null - sec alts make up a significant portion of the hi-sec population" are blowing smoke...

Because no-one knows, neither the OP, you or I...
Fair enough. Those claims are just a matter of counting backwards, though, and relying on experiences. The neat thing is that we don't need to care about how many alts the highsec players have — we just need to get a feel for how many the null/alt players have and where those are placed. We don't even need to know the account per player number.

With an average 2.2 characters per account and how much value you can get of having a character in some highsec hub, it's not a particularly long stretch of the imagination to say that for every low/null character, there is an alt that sits in highsec. Suddenly, those 30% of null/sec characters translates into 60% low/null accounts.

It's not really blowing smoke — it's extrapolating from known numbers with known properties (i.e. that highsec players are exclusive in terms of where their characters exist, whereas low/null players are not). It's the fact that we're not talking about mutually exclusive categories that let us arrive at that number and, even if that's still an estimate, we can at any rate say with absolute certainty that the actual proportion of highsec players is lower than 67%.

30% Null?

You're dreaming.... - 4:20 into the show...

Your dreaming....

15% of *ALL* characters and 20.7% of those > 5M skillpoints... (which makes sense).

Again, since we *can't* know the total break down of people/accounts/characters who have interests in Null, or those who have interests in Hi-sec - the total numbers might as well be made up out of whole cloth.

And if you count low-sec %'s in with Null-sec %'s - it's *still* only 23.2%... And the assumption your making, is that the number of players residing in Hi-Sec *don't* have an equal number of alt accounts - thereby totally cancelling out the "low/0.0" alts numbers.

Making (again) Dr. E's numbers more or less accurate as far as basic population graphics...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.