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Ishukone-Raata Enforcement Directive [I-RED] "Ishukone Subsidiary seeks Matari Investment"
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Simca Develon
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-05-03 01:56:48 UTC
Hans Nardieu wrote:

Like you for example. He called you a turncloak, and that obviously made you uncomfortable.


I'd actually forgotten that. He did and I don't remember becoming uncomfortable because of it. If anything I am more comfortable where I am.

Je suis le commencement de votre fin.

Le diable prend soin de son proper.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2012-05-03 10:51:46 UTC
Hans Nardieu wrote:

The Federal Nationalist Party aligns itself with the Minmatar Republic. We are both popular movements, driven by the people. All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people.


If I recall correctly, Mr Octirant was not really fond of immigrates and foreigner influences acting in the Federation.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#43 - 2012-05-03 11:37:33 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Hans Nardieu wrote:

The Federal Nationalist Party aligns itself with the Minmatar Republic. We are both popular movements, driven by the people. All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people.


If I recall correctly, Mr Octirant was not really fond of immigrates and foreigner influences acting in the Federation.


And look how that turned out.

It seems his successor has a greater wish to stay alive than stand by his predecessor's wayward opinions.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#44 - 2012-05-03 14:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Kohiko Sun wrote:
All this talk of TCMCs. I remember having this discussion often.

I still ask why the vendor is required to dictate what its product is used to do - TCMCs have medical and robotic use. I still ask why there is all this focus on them, and fire for Ishukone, while at the same time making use of the Falcon - an Ishukone design - in Rainbow Squad. I still ask why makers of chains, locks, and sticks - all of which are tools that can be used to impose one's will on another - are not subjected to calls of boycott.

A new one I ask is, "Is there moral outrage at the pilots who produce them and then sell them on the open market where anyone can buy them and use as they wish?"

At least in my logic, the vendor is not required to dictate what the product is used to. I am uncomfortable with the sales of TCMCs on open market, I admit - I would rather people who produce them sold only directly to people they know will not abuse them. But I can sort of live with that.

What Ishukone has done, however, is not just selling on the open market. They sell to Amarrian holders directly, at a discount, for the express purpose of "workforce control" [1]. That is quite different from just putting some up on the market and regretting it when a Holder buys them. Even if that offer is old and possibly still in effect, I see no reason to believe that Ishukone would not in the future extend similar offers to their Empire allies.

I am sure it is understandable that EM members with personal experience of some of the nastier Amarrian "workforce control" methods feel rather strongly about this. And I am quite certain that Ishukone doing it "for profit" rather than for ideology (as Rek Jaiga points out) does not make them feel much different.

(What our relationship with the Feds has to do with this, I have no idea. Federation is and has always been our ally; the State is that of the Empire.)
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-05-03 14:54:31 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

I am sure it is understandable that EM members with personal experience of some of the nastier Amarrian "workforce control" methods feel rather strongly about this.


As a Matari woman born into a deeply tribalist clan, who personally experienced some of the nastier Amarrian "workforce control" methods, I fully appreciate why they would feel strongly about this.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-05-03 15:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Gottii
Kohiko Sun wrote:
All this talk of TCMCs. I remember having this discussion often.

I still ask why the vendor is required to dictate what its product is used to do - TCMCs have medical and robotic use. I still ask why there is all this focus on them, and fire for Ishukone, while at the same time making use of the Falcon - an Ishukone design - in Rainbow Squad. I still ask why makers of chains, locks, and sticks - all of which are tools that can be used to impose one's will on another - are not subjected to calls of boycott.

A new one I ask is, "Is there moral outrage at the pilots who produce them and then sell them on the open market where anyone can buy them and use as they wish?"


Kohi, I know we have spoken at this at length. I do not wish to cause you pain in this. You have your family, and you wish to defend them. And I have my family, and I must defend them, which is why I must speak out even when its unpopular.

If a chain producer designed his chains for slavers, marketed them to slavers, and then gave price discounts to slavers, then it is a dishonest argument for that chain producer to say that he is not responsible for slavers using his chains. TCMC use in slavery is what Ishukone wanted, its what they planned for.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#47 - 2012-05-03 16:04:53 UTC
Hans Nardieu wrote:
I consider the words of the late, great Alain Octirant:

Quote:
Make no mistake, sons and daughters of Matar - The Caldari are not your friends. They are collaborators with your dire enemy. Your allies, your natural allies, are the free peoples of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime.




You can all just go fly a kite and leave us the hell alone, but I suppose that makes too much sense.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-05-03 16:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gottii
Davlos wrote:
I remember a time when Electus Matari used to be a respectable entity, with Evanda Char at the helm.

It's difficult for me to believe what I'm now seeing from EM's pilots.



I'm sure Eva's voice would be one of the loudest when holding those accountable who profit from Amarrian slavery, making sure its not forgotten and swept under the rug under the guise of "respectable behavior".

As for respectful behavior, I've no doubt she would find your recent stints in the 24th Crusade fighting to enslave her People to be much more disagreeable.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#49 - 2012-05-03 17:35:24 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

What Ishukone has done, however, is not just selling on the open market. They sell to Amarrian holders directly, at a discount, for the express purpose of "workforce control" [1]. That is quite different from just putting some up on the market and regretting it when a Holder buys them. Even if that offer is old and possibly still in effect, I see no reason to believe that Ishukone would not in the future extend similar offers to their Empire allies.


Is that so? Direct-sale, rather than selling to a wholesale retailer? And at discount, no less?

That's just a tad damning, to put it lightly. Elsebeth, thank you for bringing these facts up.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#50 - 2012-05-03 17:37:46 UTC
My pleasure.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-05-03 18:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
I imagine this might have something to do with Ishukone branching out and grasping at any straws they can due to their relative "stock" in the State dropping.

Heth isn't going anywhere and Ishukone remains the squeaky-wheel of non conformity against the order he has provided.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#52 - 2012-05-03 18:22:49 UTC
My personal opinion would be that Ishukone would benefit more from strengthening bonds with allies in the State, instead of providing additional ammunition for its enemies.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#53 - 2012-05-03 18:34:35 UTC
Caldari Lust For Material Wealth is behind Many Strange Things.

Such as this Thing. Whereby Caldari Persons seek Minmatar to give them Money, with which the Caldari will Oppress Federation-resident Minmatar, as they are a Substantial Proportion of the Federal Population.


Furthermore, if the Minmatar Become Involved with the Caldari, they will Soon End Up, not Owning Any of their Planets.

At first, it will be the Caldari saying: Here, have some Investment, oh by the way, you don't seem to be using Anher much, may we Purchase it?
And the Republic will Argue Amongst Itself, and then will say: Yes, Anher is no use to us, and is not overly Tribally Important.

Then Later, the Caldari will say: Here, have some Investment, oh by the way, you're not using Rens, are you? We have some Ideas that will benefit You greatly, if you wish to sell it to us.
And the Republic will Argue Amongst Itself again, and then will say: Yes, Rens is not overly Tribally Important, your Offer is Acceptable.

Then, it will come to pass, that the Caldari will say: Oh by the way, it is time to pay back the Investment. Cash or Pator, either will do.
And the Republic will say: Ah, Nuts. We've sold our Freedom for some Shiny Things. Woe is Us. Again.

There is Another Way, that Avoids This Unpleasantness.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Simca Develon
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-05-03 19:27:21 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
Caldari Lust For Material Wealth is behind Many Strange Things.

Such as this Thing. Whereby Caldari Persons seek Minmatar to give them Money, with which the Caldari will Oppress Federation-resident Minmatar, as they are a Substantial Proportion of the Federal Population.


Furthermore, if the Minmatar Become Involved with the Caldari, they will Soon End Up, not Owning Any of their Planets.

At first, it will be the Caldari saying: Here, have some Investment, oh by the way, you don't seem to be using Anher much, may we Purchase it?
And the Republic will Argue Amongst Itself, and then will say: Yes, Anher is no use to us, and is not overly Tribally Important.

Then Later, the Caldari will say: Here, have some Investment, oh by the way, you're not using Rens, are you? We have some Ideas that will benefit You greatly, if you wish to sell it to us.
And the Republic will Argue Amongst Itself again, and then will say: Yes, Rens is not overly Tribally Important, your Offer is Acceptable.

Then, it will come to pass, that the Caldari will say: Oh by the way, it is time to pay back the Investment. Cash or Pator, either will do.
And the Republic will say: Ah, Nuts. We've sold our Freedom for some Shiny Things. Woe is Us. Again.

There is Another Way, that Avoids This Unpleasantness.


This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read here. Which considering some of the other topics on the IGS is saying something.

Je suis le commencement de votre fin.

Le diable prend soin de son proper.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#55 - 2012-05-03 19:37:10 UTC
What's so dumb about it? Didn't Heth hold an auction for planets in the war zone that they were controlling at the time?
Simca Develon
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-05-03 20:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Simca Develon
Nick Bete wrote:
What's so dumb about it? Didn't Heth hold an auction for planets in the war zone that they were controlling at the time?


Key words there are "that we were controlling" and I'll go ahead and add "at the time" since I know someone will make that distinction if I don't.

Je suis le commencement de votre fin.

Le diable prend soin de son proper.
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#57 - 2012-05-03 22:20:25 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
What's so dumb about it? Didn't Heth hold an auction for planets in the war zone that they were controlling at the time?


You should also take note on how Ishukone conducted itself during these auctions and the years after. This is beside the point, either some in the Republic want our cooperation or they don't. If they do not.. that just means Ishukone-Raata will be forced to look for more willing Partners elsewhere.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#58 - 2012-05-03 22:33:22 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Hans Nardieu wrote:
I consider the words of the late, great Alain Octirant:

Quote:
Make no mistake, sons and daughters of Matar - The Caldari are not your friends. They are collaborators with your dire enemy. Your allies, your natural allies, are the free peoples of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime.




You can all just go fly a kite and leave us the hell alone, but I suppose that makes too much sense.


I can't say I'm overly fond of kites. I had a box kite get stuck In a tree once, and I just left it there, stupid thing.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station
Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
#59 - 2012-05-03 22:47:05 UTC
Hans Nardieu wrote:

I can't say I'm overly fond of kites. I had a box kite get stuck In a tree once, and I just left it there, stupid thing.


If that isn't a metaphor for the FNP's dedication to good policy, I don't know what is.
Vechtor
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-05-03 23:12:49 UTC
John Revenent wrote:
This is beside the point, either some in the Republic want our cooperation or they don't. If they do not.. that just means Ishukone-Raata will be forced to look for more willing Partners elsewhere.


There is nothing wrong with people seeking profit and trying to expand their production capabilities that way.

But that was a wrong move John.

Don't make them feel they are replaceable before any business actually takes place.
I know you don't think they are... Are they?