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Which race / ships to go for fleet support? (Not logi)

Author
Thorpeykins Domokins
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-05-03 16:14:08 UTC
Hello, i've been looking towards the future of my character (fairly new player) and I've decided I want to go the path of somebody who supports a fleet by ECM, webbing, neuting etc and not necessarily go straight out damage.
What i'm looking for is a small list of ships which are good for this intended role.

I've already discussed Battleships in-game and the answer I recieved was the Gallente Dominix;
Comparing the Domi to say the Abaddon:
Same highs
Same lows
1 more medium
A far bigger drone bay

BUT
Suffers with much less tank
Less capacitor

Not sure if I am missing something?

As for the Cruiser, the Curse?

I won't be using those ships anytime soon but I suppose any of the specalised frigs will do for this role?
Thanks!
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-05-03 16:34:18 UTC
You're looking for Recon cruisers. Each race has two of them which are bonused for their racial ewar, one of them stronger and one of them somewhat weaker, but able to use a covops cloak. They each (except Cal) also have a secondary type of EWAR which they can do, but is rarely used in fleets.

Amarr: Neuting (Tracking Disruption)
Curse
Pilgrim (the cloaky one)

Caldari: ECM
Rook
Falcon (cloaky)

Gallente: Long range warp disruption (sensor dampening)
Lachesis
Arazu (cloaky)

Minmatar: Long range webs (target painting)
Huginn
Rapier (cloaky)

They are all custom designed to be amazing fleet support ewar boats. Talk to the gangs you're flying with and see which one is the most in demand with those fleets.
Thorpeykins Domokins
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-05-03 16:45:27 UTC
mxzf wrote:
You're looking for Recon cruisers. Each race has two of them which are bonused for their racial ewar, one of them stronger and one of them somewhat weaker, but able to use a covops cloak. They each (except Cal) also have a secondary type of EWAR which they can do, but is rarely used in fleets.

Amarr: Neuting (Tracking Disruption)
Curse
Pilgrim (the cloaky one)

Caldari: ECM
Rook
Falcon (cloaky)

Gallente: Long range warp disruption (sensor dampening)
Lachesis
Arazu (cloaky)

Minmatar: Long range webs (target painting)
Huginn
Rapier (cloaky)

They are all custom designed to be amazing fleet support ewar boats. Talk to the gangs you're flying with and see which one is the most in demand with those fleets.

As far as i'm aware these ships die instantly in larger fleet engagements which makes me think they're not very good apart from smaller to mid-sized fights?? Don't know if i'm right in saying this though!
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2012-05-03 16:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
If you have proper logi support, you should be able to buffer fit them to survive ok. In any fight that's small enough for them to make a difference, then proper logi support will be able to keep you alive if you're fit right. Any fight where you'll be alphaed off the field or you wouldn't do enough to help your fleet, then you're probably better off in a DPS BS anyways.

Recons do have less tank than a BS, but they also have lower sig and T2 resists, making it much more feasible to buffer+sig tank them and let logis rep you up.

Edit:
tl;dr: Yes, they could die instantly in a big enough fight, but they wouldn't be doing enough to be worthwhile in that big a fight anyways. Fights that large are pretty much just alpha and Logis and that's about it.

You could also look into Interdictor/Heavy Interdictors too, they specialize in making a bubble that keeps the enemies from warping away (and HICs are specifically designed to be able to tank a supercap for a while to keep it from leaving, they can get big tanks).
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#5 - 2012-05-03 16:56:23 UTC
Good stuff here by mxzf. He omitted one thing though: Scorpion. It's the only EW battleship, and can somewhat reasonably take fire while jamming to pretty crazy ranges in battleship fleets. You may want to consider it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-03 17:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
You want larger fleet engagement EWAR ships?

Then its the Falcon. Jam, cloak, warp somewhere else, jam, cloak.
Or the Scorpion well-buffered and supported by logistics.

Domi is not really an EWAR ship, lacks range and bonuses.
Frigates lack range or EWAR power to fight BS gangs.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-05-03 17:29:34 UTC
First, I'm not sure what you are getting at with your battleship comments in the OP. But it isnt really a fair comparison with a Domi vs abaddon. It would be more appropriate to compare a domi with an apocalypse.

And yes amarr gets bigger capacitors, because their guns are so cap hungry.

As for the recon ships, people have covered that well.

And the Scorpion isnt the only EW battleship (unless you are considering EW=ECM). The Bhaalgorn is to the curse, what a Scorpion is to a Rook.
Thorpeykins Domokins
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-05-03 17:49:55 UTC
Thanks guys, you've really shed some light on the topic!! I think although the Scorpian does look like a good ECM boat, I will probably go down the Amarr route for the Curse and then the Minni route to end up flying the Bhaalgorn (in 8 months+ time what?).
That ship looks like a beast and I didn't take in the smaller signature of the Curse which may mean I can survive engagment if I need to!

Thanks!
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#9 - 2012-05-03 18:00:21 UTC
Keep in mind that, while pirate ships (specifically the Blood and Serpentis ones) can do ewar well, they are also extremely expensive (for instance, the Bhaal runs about 1.3B for just the hull) and are primaried even more often than Recons because they make very nice killmails. If you have the ISK to throw at them, they are good ships, but keep in mind that they're also MUCH more likely to be shot at than Recons.

Best of luck to you either way, but I'd suggest sticking with the Curse for a neuting ship. The sig size + resists makes it tank well and it will only run you something like 200M IIRC.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-05-03 18:11:08 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Best of luck to you either way, but I'd suggest sticking with the Curse for a neuting ship. The sig size + resists makes it tank well and it will only run you something like 200M IIRC.

For small gangs, the Curse is a beast. I flew my first one a little while ago, and I can confirm that it was intensely satisfying to disable multiple ships simultaneously, while taking a pretty large amount of fire. I can't say as to its effectiveness in BS fleets (its neuting range is a bit short for that) but I'm sure there's some way to make it work.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-05-03 18:24:22 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Keep in mind that, while pirate ships (specifically the Blood and Serpentis ones) can do ewar well, they are also extremely expensive (for instance, the Bhaal runs about 1.3B for just the hull) and are primaried even more often than Recons because they make very nice killmails. If you have the ISK to throw at them, they are good ships, but keep in mind that they're also MUCH more likely to be shot at than Recons.

Best of luck to you either way, but I'd suggest sticking with the Curse for a neuting ship. The sig size + resists makes it tank well and it will only run you something like 200M IIRC.



This, and also dont underestimate training time. It is easy to fall into the trap when new of looking at a ship and how long it takes to sit in it vs fly it well. I am just about at my 1 year mark, and I cannot effectively fly battleships that well. I can fly a domi nicely, with great drone skills. But I cannot yet use T2 large weapons and certainly haven't even started cross training racial ships.

On my alt, which is just under a year, I took a different track, by making sure I can fly each ship extremely well, rather than the mistake I made on this toon of trying to race to battleships too fast. Given that, my alt hasn't even trained battleships yet, and is just now able to fly a Falcon.
Thorpeykins Domokins
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-05-03 20:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorpeykins Domokins
Derath Ellecon wrote:
mxzf wrote:
Keep in mind that, while pirate ships (specifically the Blood and Serpentis ones) can do ewar well, they are also extremely expensive (for instance, the Bhaal runs about 1.3B for just the hull) and are primaried even more often than Recons because they make very nice killmails. If you have the ISK to throw at them, they are good ships, but keep in mind that they're also MUCH more likely to be shot at than Recons.

Best of luck to you either way, but I'd suggest sticking with the Curse for a neuting ship. The sig size + resists makes it tank well and it will only run you something like 200M IIRC.



This, and also dont underestimate training time. It is easy to fall into the trap when new of looking at a ship and how long it takes to sit in it vs fly it well. I am just about at my 1 year mark, and I cannot effectively fly battleships that well. I can fly a domi nicely, with great drone skills. But I cannot yet use T2 large weapons and certainly haven't even started cross training racial ships.

On my alt, which is just under a year, I took a different track, by making sure I can fly each ship extremely well, rather than the mistake I made on this toon of trying to race to battleships too fast. Given that, my alt hasn't even trained battleships yet, and is just now able to fly a Falcon.


Yes this part makes me sad, i'm fully aware that i'm a good 3-4 months off before flying T2 Cruisers :s even then i'm sure there will be support skills i've missed. I guess T2 guns aren't essential if i'm doing EWAR or neuting etc...

As for the cost of a Bhaalgorn, definately for special occasions but at a cost of 2bil (bit more?) it shouldn't be that much of a problem by the time I get to it.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#13 - 2012-05-03 21:03:19 UTC
Thorpeykins Domokins wrote:
Yes this part makes me sad, i'm fully aware that i'm a good 3-4 months off before flying T2 Cruisers

Considering their price, the amount of support skills they need to work right, the amount of piloting skills they need to be fitted and flown right, and the circumstantial way in which some of them work, I would say no less than 6-9 months, perhaps even more. 2-3 months for T2 frigates. There is very little "learning by experience" once you get into T2 cruisers.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Thorpeykins Domokins
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-05-03 21:28:36 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Thorpeykins Domokins wrote:
Yes this part makes me sad, i'm fully aware that i'm a good 3-4 months off before flying T2 Cruisers

Considering their price, the amount of support skills they need to work right, the amount of piloting skills they need to be fitted and flown right, and the circumstantial way in which some of them work, I would say no less than 6-9 months, perhaps even more. 2-3 months for T2 frigates. There is very little "learning by experience" once you get into T2 cruisers.

The thing I really hate about this game :S How long it takes...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#15 - 2012-05-03 21:40:50 UTC
Thorpeykins Domokins wrote:
The thing I really hate about this game :S How long it takes...

T2 cruisers are overrated. You get in one and you're suddenly afraid to take any risks lest you lose the 200 mil ISK you put into it. They can be nice, but unless you really know what you're doing, and you have the SP and ISK to back it up, stick to flying T1 stuff.

It's not like T1 is bad!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Lili Lu
#16 - 2012-05-03 22:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Thorpeykins Domokins wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Thorpeykins Domokins wrote:
Yes this part makes me sad, i'm fully aware that i'm a good 3-4 months off before flying T2 Cruisers

Considering their price, the amount of support skills they need to work right, the amount of piloting skills they need to be fitted and flown right, and the circumstantial way in which some of them work, I would say no less than 6-9 months, perhaps even more. 2-3 months for T2 frigates. There is very little "learning by experience" once you get into T2 cruisers.

The thing I really hate about this game :S How long it takes...

Get used to long trains. The more level 5 skills you accumulate the more you will find more of them to train and waiting for the better part of a month to comlete something.

Actually, even though you feel the way you do now, the long wait is what makes this game great. There is a real sense of achievement when you get into tech II ships or capitals. Or gain access to another level of tech II weaponry. If you've ever trained in martial arts, think of it that way.

edit- as to your OP, for tech II support for "fleets" that is not a logi, you can't beat a dictor or heavy interdictor.
Sup B1tches
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-05-04 09:33:15 UTC
Tier 1 BSs do make for interesting support ships...

A Pulse geddon for instance is good as support DPS for small roaming gangs, as Scorch has awesome range. The geddon can also be bricked up good and fit 8 large neuts to give anyone a very bad day.

RR'ing Domi gangs can be a lot of fun too

Typhoons are great at short DPS, smart bombs or neuts too and make things pretty interesting.

Or if you want, Command ships can give great bonuses!
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-05-04 10:04:46 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

Actually, even though you feel the way you do now, the long wait is what makes this game great.There is a real sense of achievement when you get into tech II ships or capitals.



Uh ... Waiting for something is accomplisment ? You dont have to dock from a station even once before your able to fly capitals .. its only takes time.

Where the hell is the accomplisment in that ?
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#19 - 2012-05-04 16:00:58 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Domi is not really an EWAR ship, lacks range and bonuses.
Frigates lack range or EWAR power to fight BS gangs.


He was probably pointed toward the Domi because he mentioned general support and implied a lot of flexibility, and the Domi can pretty easily mount a massive over-tanked fit with essentially no weapons while still maintaining good sustainable DPS on all size categories due to 200% damage drones. This leaves your high slots open for support screwage like large Neuts and usually an extra mid slot or two for a web or an extra point of some kind.

This is not to say that the Amarr BSes are _bad_, they're pretty awesome. But you can't really just ditch your high-slot weapons entirely for neuts without losing most of your DPS in the same way, so they don't fulfill OP's requested role.

Honestly, the answer to OP's question is still Recons, though. If anything's targeting you in your recon you've already screwed it up so bad that you deserve to die anyway, so low EHP isn't really an issue. The Domi would be an acceptable compromise if you wanted to trade in player skill for bignumbers and just bully your way through the lockdown stuff.
ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-05-04 16:23:23 UTC
There's something fundamental that you need to realize before making a decision. Because you say you want to do dedicated ewar, and to fly in big fleets. So know this:

Dedicated ewar does not scale well with fleet size.

Dedicated ewar ships are most effective in smaller gangs, where it is easier to distribute the ewar among targets and the force multiplier payoff is much larger. Recons are gold in small gangs.

In larger gangs, managing ewar is chaotic and difficult, to the point where most large fleet doctrines don't incorporate an ewar wing. Sometimes you'll see Scorpion wings, but even that isn't very common. Generally large fleets prefer to use their manpower to bring more DPS or more reps.

Anyway, consider all that before committing to a path. Most experienced PVPers seem to enjoy small gang action more than large fleet fights, so maybe what you really want is to do dedicated ewar in a small gang, where you as an individual pilot can actually make a difference in the fight.

But if you do want to go for large fleets, distributed ewar is what you'll encounter more often. Distributed ewar means putting ewar modules on the majority of your ships, even though they are not bonused for ewar. The large number of ewar modules can be as effective as a small number of dedicated ewar ships, with the bonus that your fleet's ewar cannot be easily taken out by the enemy.

So much more to say, but I'll leave it at that.
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