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P.O.W.s

Author
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-09-30 06:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Thgil Goldcore
I'm starting to run into a bit of an issue on the war front recently in which I could use some fellow Amarrian's help with.

I do make a point to rescue crew from destroyed ships when it doesn't threaten the mission, this includes hostile crew. Currently I have amassed a fair number of Prisoners of war whom I have not been able to properly identify in order to sort out.

Those who I do identify I will treat appropraitly pending on where they come from.

Any whom are born within the republic I treat properly under the rules of war as POW's, although this makes up a minority of whom I find.

Those who where registered as Amarrian citizens (having been freed legally from one source or another) are to be executed for treason. But again a minority, and I am double checking legality and alternatives (no sentences have been carried out yet).

By far the vast majority of prisoners I have found are unidentified, likely former slaves. My intent is to return these to their former masters, but simply identifying them is difficult.

I have two things to ask,

One, for those whom have committed treason is Execution the correct punishment, or is there alternatives that are preferred. I have not been in this situation before and wish to avoid any rash decisions.

Two, for any holder who has missing slaves I, send me their DNA profiles and if I find a match I will return them to you. With any luck I should be able to return all the unknowns... however... If I find no owners and cant Identify them, I'm not certain what to do with them.

For any critics who ask me to 'free them now,' I remind you that these people took arms against my Empire. releasing them back to the republic would be treasonous to my Empire.

I appreciate any advice in this matter and prefer those knowledgeable in Amarrian Law to assist.

Respectfully,
Thgil Goldcore
Initiate of PIE
Marshal Commander of the Amarr Empire

::Transcript drafted by Kahalm, Thgil Goldcore's chief of staff::
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#2 - 2011-09-30 07:09:18 UTC
Quote:
I do make a point to rescue crew from destroyed ships
I'd suggest leaving this to the Sisters of EVE. It rids you of a lot of work and ethical problems.

Though I guess "lack of identification" is just too convenient an excuse for loyal Amarrians to break imperial law.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#3 - 2011-09-30 07:11:12 UTC
The DNA profiles of my missing slaves are not that numerous as security is an important part of House Caine's slave education, but I would be glad to send them to you in sake of mutual assistance. Thank you for taking the effort and doing this kind work, ms. Goldcore.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#4 - 2011-09-30 07:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Though I guess "lack of identification" is just too convenient an excuse for loyal Amarrians to break imperial law.
Actually, I take this back.

My original line of thinking was related to the people we usually free from the Empire, a vast majority of who are malnourished and undereducated and far from any position to be crew on a spaceship. With that in mind, a statement like "a vast majority of the crew I find is likely former slaves" simply can't be true.

Though I guess in the war zone, quite a lot of the crew members will be rather recently freed crew members of Amarr ships. A bit sad for them to have been freed just for such a short time, but no one ever said war is pretty. (Says a lot about the Amarr who claim that most slaves are happy as slaves and want to stay that way if they turn around to shoot their former masters the first chance they get...) It's good to hear that the "vast majority" of our crew is made up of such people, though, as that means our war effort funnels itself with crew. If the Amarr treat these especially-educated people too badly, they'll have crew shortages at some point, so I guess they don't have to fear too many reprimands.

So, I would like to apologize for the implication that you are one of those Amarrians who look for any excuse to break Imperial law if it suits them - I'm sure you are better than that.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
I'd suggest leaving this to the Sisters of EVE. It rids you of a lot of work and ethical problems.
This, on the other hand, I still recommend. Putting a focus on taking POWs just forces us to do the same so we can arrange for some petty POW exchanges, which costs time, energy, and wastes resources. But ok.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2011-09-30 12:15:52 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
I'm starting to run into a bit of an issue on the war front recently in which I could use some fellow Amarrian's help with.

I do make a point to rescue crew from destroyed ships when it doesn't threaten the mission, this includes hostile crew. Currently I have amassed a fair number of Prisoners of war whom I have not been able to properly identify in order to sort out.

Those who I do identify I will treat appropraitly pending on where they come from.

Any whom are born within the republic I treat properly under the rules of war as POW's, although this makes up a minority of whom I find.

Those who where registered as Amarrian citizens (having been freed legally from one source or another) are to be executed for treason. But again a minority, and I am double checking legality and alternatives (no sentences have been carried out yet).

By far the vast majority of prisoners I have found are unidentified, likely former slaves. My intent is to return these to their former masters, but simply identifying them is difficult.

I have two things to ask,

One, for those whom have committed treason is Execution the correct punishment, or is there alternatives that are preferred. I have not been in this situation before and wish to avoid any rash decisions.

Two, for any holder who has missing slaves I, send me their DNA profiles and if I find a match I will return them to you. With any luck I should be able to return all the unknowns... however... If I find no owners and cant Identify them, I'm not certain what to do with them.

For any critics who ask me to 'free them now,' I remind you that these people took arms against my Empire. releasing them back to the republic would be treasonous to my Empire.

I appreciate any advice in this matter and prefer those knowledgeable in Amarrian Law to assist.

Respectfully,
Thgil Goldcore
Initiate of PIE
Marshal Commander of the Amarr Empire

::Transcript drafted by Kahalm, Thgil Goldcore's chief of staff::



This is the crux of the matter, isn't it ? Either you treat these slaves as POWs, and thus part of the enemy military personnel before everything, so you will be able to exchange them against amarrian POWs. Or either you treat them as an imperial property before everything, so you will be able to keep them or send them back to their former masters, at the risk of confirming the republican main casus belli.
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#6 - 2011-09-30 13:58:52 UTC
Dear Ms. Goldcore

First, I commend you for rescuing crews. The Sisters miss many, and many die in space. Your efforts show a moral and ethical depth that many lack. The Disciples of Ston commend you.

I am not Amarrian, so my advice isn't specifically what you are asking for. In spite of this, I would like to share just a thought or two. If you find former slaves, homeless, or any other living humans that you cannot identify with certainty, please consider allowing the Disciples of Ston to take them into either our matriculation centers or our homeless shelter. We even have a detention center where prisoners are treated humanely while waiting proper, non-capital judgment.

I believe that some of those you rescue had no choice about being on the vessels they were on when attacked. Slaves for example are sometimes illegally sold to non-Amarrians and continue in slavery in the State, Republic, and Federation. We have encountered slave traders from every sovereignty and numerous corporations. Sometimes they are transported on warships that are actively engaged in military campaigns.

My only point is, that we are standing by, willing to receive any that you can legally or willingly transfer to us.

Please keep this option open. I am confident that those you have rescued will be well treated until you decide what to do.

Sincerely,
Ston Momaki on behalf of the Disciples of Ston

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#7 - 2011-09-30 14:07:33 UTC
Ston Momaki wrote:
Slaves for example are sometimes illegally sold to non-Amarrians and continue in slavery in the State, Republic, and Federation. We have encountered slave traders from every sovereignty and numerous corporations.
I would be very interested in receiving the names of any such people or groups you encounter in the Republic.
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#8 - 2011-09-30 14:23:25 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Those who where registered as Amarrian citizens


Heathen Legion is always willing to exchange captured Imperial military personnel for incarcerated Amarrian rebels.
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#9 - 2011-09-30 14:43:16 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Ston Momaki wrote:
Slaves for example are sometimes illegally sold to non-Amarrians and continue in slavery in the State, Republic, and Federation. We have encountered slave traders from every sovereignty and numerous corporations.
I would be very interested in receiving the names of any such people or groups you encounter in the Republic.


Mr. Sadik,
We appreciate your interest in justice. While we do not wish for the death penalty to be used even against these vile offenders, we would welcome your actions in bringing such people to justice. I will give you the name of a Sebiestor who's actions put at risk 99 of his fellow Minmatar. This is a Minmatar slave trader who has no regard for the lives of his fellow Minmatar.

His name is Siasu and he is part of Moonlight Marauders corporation.

Ms. Goldcore, my apology for getting off topic.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#10 - 2011-09-30 15:07:09 UTC
Mr. Momaki,
You have a mail. You have a good point about not derailing this thread further with this inquiry.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-09-30 17:50:47 UTC
With apologize Ston, handing over any military personnel to a group which may return the back to their active duty would be a treasonous action on my part. Such an act of freely handing over the prisoners to the enemy would be akin to handing them ships and ammunition.

Remember this is a military matter, not a humanitarian one. Still, my prisoners are receiving the standard level of care for any such prisoners; meaning they are being fed and not being tortured (since I need to spell it out for people who assume wrongdoing). But for the same reason I cannot turn my prisoners to Ston is the same reason I cannot turn them over to the sisters of eve. They are a wonderful organization, but any possibility of them being re-integrated into a rebel crew and kill Empire personal is unthinkable.

In terms of negotiating an exchange, I do need to check the legality of such action. However I will not deal with individuals whom have proven themselves to be heretics and unreliable... nor will I even negotiate. I will talk with warriors with curtain shreds of honor, like that Rek fellow. At the very least I have some of his crew which gives him a reason to negotiate fairly.

Respectfully,
Thgil Goldcore
Initiate of PIE
Marshal Commander of the Amarr Empire
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#12 - 2011-09-30 19:09:27 UTC
I am glad someone brought up this problem. I have a number of prisoners who I do not feel it is proper to just turn loose without a hearing. Some were ex-slaves who were promptly freed as soon as it could be verified that they had committed no crimes in Caldari/Amarr territory. Others have been very uncooperative and are being held until such time it can be determined just who they are and what, if any, crimes they have committed.

I am holding them at my own expense since I do not feel they will receive a fair and unbiased trial at their current location. If anyone else does have a satisifactory answer to this problem, I would like to be kept informed.
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#13 - 2011-09-30 20:01:16 UTC
As far as addressing the problem with identification. Simply inform the recalcitant ones that they are either identifying themselves or entering the guidance of a holder as one of first generation, with the specific note of rebellious attitude and suspicion of criminal and violent tendencies.

Any who after this fail to identify themselves likely deserve worse, as they think their punishment for crimes committed to outweigh the hard labour and supervision they will be under. In such a case, the terms may even be a small mercy.

Captain Crow

Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#14 - 2011-09-30 23:48:31 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Remember this is a military matter, not a humanitarian one. Still, my prisoners are receiving the standard level of care for any such prisoners; meaning they are being fed and not being tortured (since I need to spell it out for people who assume wrongdoing).


Define torture.

Since when is torture considered wrongdoing in the Empire?
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#15 - 2011-10-01 00:45:55 UTC
War is precisely the time and the place where humanitarian organizations are most needed. War is the main reason humanitarian organizations exist. Humanitarian organizations exist in part to alleviate the suffering of innocents in war torn areas and to raise the issue of the humane treatment of P.O.W.s as well. What would be helpful with regard to P.O.W.s would be a humanitarian convention on P.O.W.s that all warring factions agreed to follow. Humanitarian organizations, be it the sisters or whomever is acceptable should have access to all P.O.W facilities on all sides of the warring factions. It is the civilized thing to do in the presence of something as uncivilized as war can be.

The treatment of and policies towards P.O.W.s is a humanitarian issue of utmost importance.

SANKOFA

Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2011-10-01 03:55:39 UTC
While your quite right Manwe that humanitarian organizations are needed most because of conflict, that has much to do with civilian populations or non-combat personnel. We should all be very glad sisters and other organizations and they deserve the praise of the entire cluster.

However, as noted these are military personnel whom have taken arms against the Empire. Assuming they are honorable warriors they fully understand the risks and rules of war. Being caught as a prisoner is very much part of war.

Mind you I have chosen to rescue them instead of leaving them to their deaths (which their own captain has done mind you). Most of these crew are from capsuleer ships, which hold little strategic knowledge. So there is little need to force information from them. And the idea of just saving them to kill them later is silly.

In this matter I have no reason to mistreat POW's in anyway. Though, I'm not going to grant them anything more than the bare minimal level of care for a dangerous criminal. So unless your telling me that jailing dangerous persons is somehow wrong, I am fully in the right to hold these persons.

Thgil Goldcore
Initiate of Pie
Marshal Commander of the Amarr Empire
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#17 - 2011-10-01 12:39:55 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Those who where registered as Amarrian citizens (having been freed legally from one source or another) are to be executed for treason.


Thgil Goldcore wrote:
And the idea of just saving them to kill them later is silly.


Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-10-01 19:32:24 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
. But again a minority, and I am double checking legality and alternatives (no sentences have been carried out yet).


I would like to find alternatives, but it is my duty to uphold the Empire's law.
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#19 - 2011-10-01 19:39:00 UTC
If you would be willing to consider a prisoner exchange for the captured Amarrian rebels. I guarantee they would not be enlisted to take up arms against the Empire. I would deliver them straight to the colony world of Kaztropol, far away from Imperial space. You have my word.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#20 - 2011-10-02 10:19:52 UTC
Kazzzi wrote:
You have my word.


The word of a race-traitor is meaningless.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

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