Ships & Modules

No, it's 1% chance that gets rolled 24 times for one gun to do triple damage. If you had 13 Tornados with 8 guns each you wouldn't have a 100% chance for a gun to do triple damage, you'd have 1% chance 8x13 times.

And even with EM the Hulk still has more than 23k EHP - Hardly 10%, isn't it?

Besides that, mine with Orca support and the two Tornados couldn't even touch you.

Can't... stop... laughing...



As I said with my following example, if you fire 100 guns you don't have a guaranteed wrecking shot. You have 100 times the chance for a wrecking shot.
But that wasn't even the important point.
Nobody is going to gank your Hulk if he depends on Wrecking Shots to do so, especially with a chance that low. That would be a gamble nobody wants to make.

24 chances at 1% is not 24%.


That said, would like to see a bit of love to the Hulk in some form or other. If a couple of Tornados rolled in and decided they wanted to kill my alt, I'd shrug and go "Fair enough, they really wanted to kill me."

Having to sacrifice the core element of a ship to fend off 2-3 Destroyers? Nah, and I'll use a bit of logic on this one that people have been applying elsewhere for a while.


The last 6 months we've heard nothing but "risk vs reward" bollocks over the Incursion pay. It was a justified call, that for the lack of difficulty and commitment needed, the reward was far too high.

In this case it's dropping a handful of cheap throwaway ships that barely scratch the wallet (risk) scoring easy kills because someone didn't overtank their Hulk because surprise surprise they set it up to mine. They get their reward (Hulk death) and have managed to punch greatly above their weight.

With various changes that have come into the game (dessie RoF penalty removal giving them a second volley, buffs to certain guntypes etc) since the inception of the Hulk, it's no longer balanced against these small elements. A small PG or EHP increase would only bring a level of status quo.

Will you survive a pair of Tornados while set up to mine? Probably not (and you shouldn't) but they committed to their risk with expense, and thus get their reward.


Unkillable mining barges are a ridiculous idea, but so is the idea that a small 2-3 dessie gang can play Iwinpvp.

First they ignore you,
then they laugh about you,
then they fight you,
...

You do not really believe that for a pilot, who knows he does not have all skills at level V nor does the ganker have all skills at level V, to take such a stupid risk. And for what? To mine some ore and the chance to lose a 300m+ ISK ship?

I beg you, please, come to your senses.

Flip a coin, you've a 50% chance it's going to come up heads.

Flip it again, you've a 50% chance it's going to come up heads. Not 100% because last time was tails or 0% because you scored heads before.


You have 24 shots. 24 chances at rolling 100/100, the odds on each individual roll do not increase or decrease just because you rolled a given value before.

Also Buzzy has the right math.

Popping in to say that the probability of a Tornado getting one wrecking shot with at least one gun in each cycle 1-(0.99^8) = 7.726%.

Getting at least one wrecking shot in 3 cycles is 1-(0.99^24) = 21.432%. But... when was the last time you saw 3 Tornados sacrificed in favor of one Hulk? If it requires that much, the gankers usually hop in destroyers and kill the untanked Hulk next door instead. They're not very picky on who it is so long as it's easy to kill and it's a Hulk.

Getting at least one wrecking shot in 100 shots is 1-(0.99^100) = 63.397%.

To give a perspective on exactly how low that is... 100 shots is 12-13 Tornados firing at once. Still, there is only a 63.4% chance for a relatively low increase in damage. A more familiar "chance" number that PvPers want to "rely" on is jamming chance. A Falcon jamming a Tornado has an 86% chance to jam, and that's not considered too hot. 63.4% is not that much, and that's 12 Tornados. In the scope of one or three Tornados, the chance for even a single wrecking shot (7.7% and 21.4%) is almost negligible.

And now back to your scheduled drivel and circlejerking.

I have stated over and over and over that that is not true, and even listed step by step how to keep yourself safe from gankers a few posts back. Gankers do not use covert ops ships, therefore to an awake miner they always broadcast their approach. The tank only exists as a fallback in case you didn't happen to be paying attention. If you were paying attention, you should be able to get away without a hitch. The reason people prefer to gank Hulks is because their pilots never use the tools at their disposal: local, standings, directional scan, and the overview. Go try to gank PvEers in lowsec or nullsec, and 90% of the time they will get away from you because of those things. Not tank. Not ship price. Not CONCORD. Just paying attention.

Ed: Repeating my point again: not using the tools I listed above to stay safe, and relying on tank alone does not mean that the Hulk tank needs a buff. It just means that Hulk pilots that get ganked need to learn to play better.

A better argument for the buff is that a mere few destroyer hulls can kill a Hulk, but that's a result of the destroyer buff making them excellent at killing anything that doesn't shoot back at them rather than Hulks having inherently low HP. The same destroyers will utterly murder any recon cruiser, HAC, and even some battlecruisers, in addition to most frigate sized hulls. Destroyers may need another balancing pass, since 400-500 DPS with small guns is a little over the top, but I disagree that this also means Hulks need a HP buff.

The Hulk doesn't have a "great" tank, it has a "good enough" tank. Vengeances, Sacrileges, and Damnations have great tanks. It may need a light CPU and PG buff to be able to fit a T2 tank without stellar fitting skills. So far as destroyer suicide ganks, I'd rather see the Catalyst and Thrasher and how they compare with bigger ships looked at, rather than Hulks getting a LSE.

please to be explaining the need for additional powergrid that is not simply adding more tanking mods

we would not wish to believe you were making a transparently dishonest argument about "not trying to add EHP" when you're trying to do exactly that

Goons... You cannot own someone for what they do not care for.

I studied mathematics at a university about 20 years ago. What do you think of that?! I just do not care for it any more.

You want to own me... You have no idea what you are going to get, kid.