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Tweak heatsink?
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Demieta
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-02 17:39:36 UTC
There has been much hand wringing around here about energy weapons. I've been poking around, and I have noticed that the mag stab, gyro, and heat sink all give the same bonuses, a damage multiplier and a RoF bonus. I know that when I've made Amarr fits, one of the things that I keep running into is that every heat sink I fit has a significant impact on the ship's cap.

So here's an idea:

Increase the multiplier by a little and decrease the RoF bonus proportionally to reduce an unintentionally severe drawback of the weapon upgrade.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2 - 2012-05-02 17:48:46 UTC
Wont that mean it would give overall less dps due to more stacking though?
Jhelom
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-05-02 17:49:56 UTC
I fly Amarr exclusively and feel your pain with cap demands.

Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the cap usage of laz0rs rather than the modules? Virtually all other weapons have been 'tweaked' at some point. It seems to me CCP should follow suit with Amarr and 'balance' lasers by reducing cap/fitting requirements.

Just my $.02
Alara IonStorm
#4 - 2012-05-02 18:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.
Demieta
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-05-02 18:03:14 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Wont that mean it would give overall less dps due to more stacking though?


Off the top of my head I think that would only happen with a collision rig. Multiple heat sinks should just be proportional. I'd need to do some analysis to know for sure. Do you know where I can get the basic stacking formula?
Demieta
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-02 18:16:05 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.


I like that a lot. In previous games I've played I've seen migrations from alpha optimization to higher frequency DPS as rules were tweaked to reduce one-shoting. It would give lasers a PvE bump because it would further reduce the turret dead time.

If CCP were to adopt it they might just figure that if the cycle time was fast enough, they wouldn't have to deal with the extra math of proportional cap and applied damage (probably easier to code that way).
Demieta
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-05-02 18:21:48 UTC
Jhelom wrote:
I fly Amarr exclusively and feel your pain with cap demands.

Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the cap usage of laz0rs rather than the modules? Virtually all other weapons have been 'tweaked' at some point. It seems to me CCP should follow suit with Amarr and 'balance' lasers by reducing cap/fitting requirements.

Just my $.02


I'm kind of making an assumption that major changes to the turrets (like better falloff, better tracking, reduced fitting, or cap usage) is more or less off the table for a while as they're probably still looking at the second and third order effects of the hybrids buffs. If they were to make a radical change I'd like to see Alara's idea rather than a more mundane tweak.

Mostly I started this thread to put up other ideas than what has been previously discussed that might give a minor change to the balance than try to keep hitting things with a hammer.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-05-02 18:24:55 UTC
Demieta wrote:
There has been much hand wringing around here about energy weapons. I've been poking around, and I have noticed that the mag stab, gyro, and heat sink all give the same bonuses, a damage multiplier and a RoF bonus. I know that when I've made Amarr fits, one of the things that I keep running into is that every heat sink I fit has a significant impact on the ship's cap.

So here's an idea:

Increase the multiplier by a little and decrease the RoF bonus proportionally to reduce an unintentionally severe drawback of the weapon upgrade.


Heat sinks aren't the problem here.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#9 - 2012-05-02 18:27:34 UTC
Isn't the complaint basically that lasers use too much cap? What?

Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.

There are probably about five thousand balance problems hidden in there, but the idea is seriously cool.
TotalRapeage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-05-03 05:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: TotalRapeage
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.



I would like that we just play the game and stop friggin complaining.

I bet you crybabies would scream for a nerf in a game of chess!! Oh, why was his queen able to move like that and checkmate me???!!! omg nerf nerf !!!!!

If you can't handle a game of chess then go play freaken checkers man!!
Katalci
Kismesis
#11 - 2012-05-03 06:25:19 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.

If you touch my 4k volley damage Abaddons I will be forced to do bad things to you.
Alara IonStorm
#12 - 2012-05-03 06:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Kasutra wrote:
Isn't the complaint basically that lasers use too much cap? What?

Yup. Removing all RoF Bonuses from Ships and Mods to Damage Bonuses would lessen that.
Kasutra wrote:

There are probably about five thousand balance problems hidden in there, but the idea is seriously cool.

Only 5000? I literally didn't think past ooooh Shiny. They have smart people for that. But hey throw everything against the wall and see what sticks.
TotalRapeage wrote:

I would like that we just play the game and stop friggin complaining.

I bet you crybabies would scream for a nerf in a game of chess!! Oh, why was his queen able to move like that and checkmate me???!!! omg nerf nerf !!!!!

If you can't handle a game of chess then go play freaken checkers man!!

Why do you think I am complaining. I am fine with the game and enjoy it. Doesn't mean I won't suggest what I want. If they do it they do it, if they don't they don't.

If that bugs you, gets under your skin enough to make you type the underlined.

Well that is just a little bonus for me.
Katalci wrote:

If you touch my 4k volley damage Abaddons I will be forced to do bad things to you.

I am a little very extremely turned on by this.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-05-03 08:23:40 UTC
TotalRapeage wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.



I would like that we just play the game and stop friggin complaining.

I bet you crybabies would scream for a nerf in a game of chess!! Oh, why was his queen able to move like that and checkmate me???!!! omg nerf nerf !!!!!

If you can't handle a game of chess then go play freaken checkers man!!


meh

I should buy an Ishtar.
Alara IonStorm
#14 - 2012-05-03 08:34:01 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

meh

Skynet is born.

Fortunately humanity is safe as long as they do not stand in a diagonal path of its Terminators.

Skynet announces goal of moving forward with its invasion plan until its armies reach a point where they can move backwards.
Joyitii
Red.Line
#15 - 2012-05-04 03:22:25 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like that they remove Duration as a bonus and Volley all together.

Make all Lasers have a 1 Second Duration and no Cycle Animation. It glows like the Cloak when active. Their DPS is their Volley and all bonus are to Dmg only and Cap is divided by their current volley into how much per second and deducted once a second. Same with the division of overheat dmg.

Basically they become Solid State Lasers, the Beam never breaks. You fire it the beam comes out, you turn it off or die and the beam stops.

That would be a very unique weapon.

Void Rays. Void Rays. Gotta mass up my Void Rays!
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame
#16 - 2012-05-04 07:10:24 UTC
Jhelom wrote:
I fly Amarr exclusively and feel your pain with cap demands.

Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the cap usage of laz0rs rather than the modules? Virtually all other weapons have been 'tweaked' at some point. It seems to me CCP should follow suit with Amarr and 'balance' lasers by reducing cap/fitting requirements.

Just my $.02



a T2 Projectile gun has a penalty of cpu and powergrid increase, in relation to a M4 projectile gun.

a T2 Laser has that CPU and Powergrid penality + capacitor powergrid.

they also have bad tracking, compared with other gun types ...


the situation is a bit ridiculous in case of Abaddons, that need to be cap feed, in several situations, just to keep on shooting they're guns by prolonged time...


Lasers need to have they're cap usage consumption reviewed and reduced, as well as the penalisation from Meta 4 to T2 Laser Guns.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-05-04 09:25:34 UTC
Demieta wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Wont that mean it would give overall less dps due to more stacking though?


Off the top of my head I think that would only happen with a collision rig. Multiple heat sinks should just be proportional. I'd need to do some analysis to know for sure. Do you know where I can get the basic stacking formula?



25% RoF = 33% straight up damage bonus.


I know that there's a formula somewhere that proves this, but I forgot it and I'm very bad at maths.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-05-04 10:01:50 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Demieta wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Wont that mean it would give overall less dps due to more stacking though?


Off the top of my head I think that would only happen with a collision rig. Multiple heat sinks should just be proportional. I'd need to do some analysis to know for sure. Do you know where I can get the basic stacking formula?



25% RoF = 33% straight up damage bonus.


I know that there's a formula somewhere that proves this, but I forgot it and I'm very bad at maths.

1 damage per 0.75 second cycle = 1.33 damage per second (1/0.75=1.33)
1.25 damage per 1 second cycle = 1.25 damage per second (1.25/1=1.25)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#19 - 2012-05-04 10:02:50 UTC
Lasers have cap problem ; other weapons have ammo and reload problem.
BTW, Rokh cap themselves too with railguns, and they also use ammo ; a bit like having all problems in one weapon...
Lasers are also very versatile weapons for the range of engagement, not the best at any range, but better than most.
Bap1811
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#20 - 2012-05-04 10:06:23 UTC
Jhelom wrote:
I fly Amarr exclusively and feel your pain with cap demands.

Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the cap usage of laz0rs rather than the modules? Virtually all other weapons have been 'tweaked' at some point. It seems to me CCP should follow suit with Amarr and 'balance' lasers by reducing cap/fitting requirements.

Just my $.02

Well, lasers were the first to be "rebalanced" AKA buffed ages ago (specially scorch), they were fotm for ages until they buffed autocannons later. Now we just got the blaster fix which made them less useless rather than fotm which is quite a phenomenon.

I expect drones or missiles will be rebalanced next. Apparently its drones.
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