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Ice Blocks ratio to POS production

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Tessa Odain
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-05-03 07:20:37 UTC
Cry

After confirming the number with some corp mates, I am astounded at the ridiculousness of needed ice blocks to fuel a medium POS for one month.

Apparently I need 13,400 blocks of Ice for 28 days worth of online time. If, I solo mined that in my mack, it would take me about 20 days of straight mining!

Please say it isnt so!

How can it be that the needed PI materials be easily attained by one account but the ice be astronomically difficult to attain?
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#2 - 2012-05-03 07:43:31 UTC
To put it another way, it's what 200m to fuel a medium POS for a month - and that is so easy to justify against POS operation profits that you'll never want to go near a mackinaw :o)
Raath Nambode
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-05-03 08:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Raath Nambode
Tessa Odain wrote:
Cry

Apparently I need 13,400 blocks of Ice for 28 days worth of online time. If, I solo mined that in my mack, it would take me about 20 days of straight mining!


I think you're getting confused with quantities and runs. 1 run produces 40 blocks so you only need 335 runs to produce 13'400 blocks

13'400 blocks of ice

It equates to around 450 blocks of ice which you could solo mine in a couple of days even without an orca to boost easilly

Wormhome Navigation - http://www.staticmapper.com Industrial Management - http://industry.darkshadowindustries.com Follow me on twitter https://twitter.com/staticmapper
Nazowa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-05-03 08:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nazowa
And people wonder why bots exist in the game when EvE makes design decisions like this. Forcing people to pay ISK is one thing but doing it in a way that is so cumbersome is another.

Add some form of low level ice mining in PI, in polar regions of suitable planets for example. Make it so that it really is not very profitable. This will encourage corps to poke their members to do it even if they are not interested in PI for the benefit of the corp.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#5 - 2012-05-03 11:08:16 UTC
Nazowa wrote:
And people wonder why bots exist in the game when EvE makes design decisions like this. Forcing people to pay ISK is one thing but doing it in a way that is so cumbersome is another.

Add some form of low level ice mining in PI, in polar regions of suitable planets for example. Make it so that it really is not very profitable. This will encourage corps to poke their members to do it even if they are not interested in PI for the benefit of the corp.



You dont need a bot you just need a better understanding of math and how to use a calculator to know that you dont even need over 800 blocks let alone over 10k blocks.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#6 - 2012-05-03 12:00:36 UTC
Tessa Odain wrote:
Cry

After confirming the number with some corp mates, I am astounded at the ridiculousness of needed ice blocks to fuel a medium POS for one month.

Apparently I need 13,400 blocks of Ice for 28 days worth of online time. If, I solo mined that in my mack, it would take me about 20 days of straight mining!

Please say it isnt so!

How can it be that the needed PI materials be easily attained by one account but the ice be astronomically difficult to attain?



Lets redo that shall we.

A Medium Tower (mine is elite Pirate, so it's a bit less than regular but close enough) needs around 11750 Fuel Blocks per month.

That is 11750 / 40 (Block per Run) = 295 BP Runs

Don't worry about Isotopes as you will have excess here, so lets calculate the HEavy Water need: 295 Runs x 150 HW per Run = 44250 HW Water.

Each Ice Cube has 50 Heavy Water so: 44250 / 50 = 885 Ice Cubes needed.

My Orca holds 144 of those, so that's: 885 cubes/144= 6 Orca Loads

With 1 Mackinaw taking 2 hours (I use 2 Macks but this is for 1) that's 12 hours of mining.

With that 44250 Heavy Water, you get WAY more Isotopes than you need, but Liquid Ozone is short of course, by half exactly. Use the SALES from the Isotopes to byt that needed Liquid O (you'll still have a lot of profit from the Isotope sales, so the cost is negligible really). Then make your Fuel Blocks.

so...it's 12 hours of Ice Mining per month for the Medium Tower (Elite). Maybe 14 or 15 for a regular.

Hardly your ridiculous "Month of Mining"

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#7 - 2012-05-03 15:00:05 UTC
Actually I make my own fuel blocks doing all the PI and most of the ice mining myself. I have 4 accounts, 3 miners and an ORCA pilot. I pull in on average about 175 blocks per hour with my team including all logistics, avoiding gankers, etc.

Heavy water is extremely cheap as there is far more supply than demand for it. I mine white glaze which has twice the amount of HW as LO. Liquid Ozone can be a problem but if you know where to look you can buy it pretty cheap. mining for the iso's you can get more than enough iso's from 1000 blocks to fuel a large POS.

A perfect researched fuel Block BPO with PE 5 manufacturing skill requires 400 iso's per run and yields 40 blocks. High sec ice yields 300 iso's per block.
720 hours in a 30 day month, 1 run of fuel block BPO yeilds 40 blocks or one hours worth of fuel for a normal large tower. basically 1 run = 1 hour fuel for a large tower. 1 run will give you 2 hours fule for a medium tower or 4 hours for a small tower.
So 720 hours x 400 iso's = 288000 iso's needed to fuel a large tower for one month, half that for a medium 144000 iso's
300 iso's per block with perfect refine 288000/300=960 blocks needed for enough iso's for one month of fuel in a large tower.

If you want to supply HW and LO from high sec ice you need a little more. you get 50 HW and only 25 LO per block from high sec ice. 1 run fuel block BPO needs 150 of each.

I do not know why they did not change the amounts you get when they made the fuel block change. if fuel blocks need the same it would make sense to have high sec ice yield the same for both. Since you get twice as much HW as LO, HW is almost worthless, you can buy it super cheap, but if you mine your ICE selling the excess HW doesn't bring in much isk. The ice products you need per run are so unbalanced now compared to the yield you get from high sec ice.

So 25 LO per block with 150 needed per run. 720 runs x150 LO = 108000 LO / 25 = 4320 Blocks to get enough LO from high sec ice to fuel a large POS for one month. 3360 blocks more than you need to get the required iso's. This will also net you 108000 surplus HW and 1008000 surplus iso's. This is why I purchase my HW and buy either dark glitter (1000 LO per block) or LO from the market. What would you rather do mine an extra 3360 blocks of ice on top of the 960 you need for iso's or buy 84000 LO from the market. Today in Jita LO is 470 isk/unit. Thats just under 40 mil worth of LO. I would much rather spend 40 mil than mine an extra 3360 blocks of ice which would take me almost 20 hours with 4 accounts. Considering it only takes me about 5 1/2 hours to mine the iso's and I am currently making about 500 mil a month off selling my surplus fuel, 40 mil a month is not a big hit. It would only be 20 mil for a medium tower.

You used to be able to reduce LO consumption buy not fully loading a tower but now they use full fuel even if no CPU/GRID is used.

Personally I mine for my Iso's and purchase the extra HW and LO I need. Plus make all my own PI products. With spending 1-2 days a month mining I make enough fuel to keep my POS going and sell the excess Fuel blocks and PI mats for about 500 mil per month. as I said before takes me about 5 1/2 hours of mining and another 1-2 hours of logistics and setting up the manufacturing runs to not only fuel my tower but make an extra 500 mil a month profit. Considering I spend about 30 min per day doing PI making fuel block mats in total I spend about 24 hours a month to keep a large tower running and pocket an extra 500 mil profit after taking care of the fuel. To buy the fuel for a large tower would cost about 500 mil per month so fuel costs plus profit that 24 hours work per month is making me about 1 bil isk. That is only about 40 mil an hour average but it is very easy, semi passive, very low risk income.
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-05-03 15:51:57 UTC
You guys are a bunch of crying babies...
A POS was NEVER ment to be for solo players, they are ment for corporations.
IF they were ment for solo players, they would be deployable as such.

Any worthy corporation for actual flying in space things SHOULD have at least 5-10 active humans in it. Problem with this, is trust. You can not trust anyone in EVE, so pilots make their own alt corps.

There are, in my eyes, 3 things that should be fixed, and cause YOU to run YOUR OWN corp in this MMO.

1: Corp setting if attacks on a corp member should trigger CONCORDE , FACTION POLICE or NO action at all.
This to prevent people from inviting you to their corp so they can blow you up in High-Sec, or, joining your corp so they can blow you up in High Sec. When / If a corp member 'grab' GCC, the person attacked get up an 'I forgive' checkbox to send Concorde away.

2: Ability to use CORP / ALLIANCE POS modules that you are allowed to access from YOUR personal hangar.

3: A 'guest' hangar at all labs etc where you can put in up to say... 1000 m3 of 'stuff', for production / research that one can not 'get out' short of UN-anchoring the module (even as director)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2012-05-03 15:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Large: 40 fuel blocks per hour, 28800 fuel blocks per month, 720 runs per month
* Isotopes: 720 runs per month * 400 per run / 300 per ice = 960 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Heavy Water: 720 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 2160 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Liquid Ozone: 720 runs per month * 150 per run / 25 per ice = 4320 blocks of hisec ice per month

Medium: 20 fuel blocks per hour, 14400 fuel blocks per month, 360 runs per month
* Isotopes: 360 runs per month * 400 per run / 300 per ice = 480 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Heavy Water: 360 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 1080 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Liquid Ozone: 360 runs per month * 150 per run / 25 per ice = 2160 blocks of hisec ice per month

Small: 10 fuel blocks per hour, 7200 fuel blocks per month, 180 runs per month
* Isotopes: 180 runs per month * 400 per run / 300 per ice = 240 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Heavy Water: 180 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 540 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Liquid Ozone: 180 runs per month * 150 per run / 25 per ice = 1080 blocks of hisec ice per month
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-05-04 14:52:47 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
You guys are a bunch of crying babies...
A POS was NEVER ment to be for solo players, they are ment for corporations.
IF they were ment for solo players, they would be deployable as such.

Any worthy corporation for actual flying in space things SHOULD have at least 5-10 active humans in it. Problem with this, is trust. You can not trust anyone in EVE, so pilots make their own alt corps.

There are, in my eyes, 3 things that should be fixed, and cause YOU to run YOUR OWN corp in this MMO.

1: Corp setting if attacks on a corp member should trigger CONCORDE , FACTION POLICE or NO action at all.
This to prevent people from inviting you to their corp so they can blow you up in High-Sec, or, joining your corp so they can blow you up in High Sec. When / If a corp member 'grab' GCC, the person attacked get up an 'I forgive' checkbox to send Concorde away.

2: Ability to use CORP / ALLIANCE POS modules that you are allowed to access from YOUR personal hangar.

3: A 'guest' hangar at all labs etc where you can put in up to say... 1000 m3 of 'stuff', for production / research that one can not 'get out' short of UN-anchoring the module (even as director)





Completely off subject from original post go troll some other thread........

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
blood hauler
The Art of War
#11 - 2012-05-04 15:35:52 UTC
Would have liked to seen ice products added to rouge drones when they removed mins
Tessa Odain
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-05-05 02:38:43 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Tessa Odain wrote:
Cry

After confirming the number with some corp mates, I am astounded at the ridiculousness of needed ice blocks to fuel a medium POS for one month.

Apparently I need 13,400 blocks of Ice for 28 days worth of online time. If, I solo mined that in my mack, it would take me about 20 days of straight mining!

Please say it isnt so!

How can it be that the needed PI materials be easily attained by one account but the ice be astronomically difficult to attain?



Lets redo that shall we.

A Medium Tower (mine is elite Pirate, so it's a bit less than regular but close enough) needs around 11750 Fuel Blocks per month.

That is 11750 / 40 (Block per Run) = 295 BP Runs

Don't worry about Isotopes as you will have excess here, so lets calculate the HEavy Water need: 295 Runs x 150 HW per Run = 44250 HW Water.

Each Ice Cube has 50 Heavy Water so: 44250 / 50 = 885 Ice Cubes needed.

My Orca holds 144 of those, so that's: 885 cubes/144= 6 Orca Loads

With 1 Mackinaw taking 2 hours (I use 2 Macks but this is for 1) that's 12 hours of mining.

With that 44250 Heavy Water, you get WAY more Isotopes than you need, but Liquid Ozone is short of course, by half exactly. Use the SALES from the Isotopes to byt that needed Liquid O (you'll still have a lot of profit from the Isotope sales, so the cost is negligible really). Then make your Fuel Blocks.

so...it's 12 hours of Ice Mining per month for the Medium Tower (Elite). Maybe 14 or 15 for a regular.

Hardly your ridiculous "Month of Mining"



Never have I been so happy to be proven wrong :)

+1 to you!
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#13 - 2012-05-06 12:52:02 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
You guys are a bunch of crying babies...
A POS was NEVER ment to be for solo players, they are ment for corporations.
IF they were ment for solo players, they would be deployable as such.




Where is your signature on "The Book of EVE Rules " ?

I didn't think so. What a Tool.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#14 - 2012-05-06 12:53:38 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:

Any worthy corporation for actual flying in space things SHOULD have at least 5-10 active humans in it. Problem with this, is trust. You can not trust anyone in EVE, so pilots make their own alt corps.




Define worthy.

Why 5-10 exactly.

Come on......enlighten us.

You typed this s**t, now justify your idiocy for us.......come on in, the water's fine.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#15 - 2012-05-06 12:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:


1: Corp setting if attacks on a corp member should trigger CONCORDE , FACTION POLICE or NO action at all.
This to prevent people from inviting you to their corp so they can blow you up in High-Sec, or, joining your corp so they can blow you up in High Sec. When / If a corp member 'grab' GCC, the person attacked get up an 'I forgive' checkbox to send Concorde away.


And if this happened to you, do you not know how to do decent background checks...or are you just desperate for those "required" 10 members? Roll ....in order to make you a less tempting more expensive War Target ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-05-06 17:47:22 UTC
being that a pos is large enough for a group of players, and requires allot of fuel for just one player to make

maybe a small space base needs to be had that requires much less fuel. With facility's enough for one person and his ships.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#17 - 2012-05-06 18:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
being that a pos is large enough for a group of players, and requires allot of fuel for just one player to make

maybe a small space base needs to be had that requires much less fuel. With facility's enough for one person and his ships.



My Medium True Sansha uses 11,500 Blocks a month. A small one less than that. What's the problem ?

But then that's the Goon's issue with us High Sec carebears 'wanting it easy'. This just feeds the rep.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#18 - 2012-05-09 17:29:19 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Large: 40 fuel blocks per hour, 28800 fuel blocks per month, 720 runs per month
* Isotopes: 720 runs per month * 400 per run / 300 per ice = 960 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Heavy Water: 720 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 2160 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Liquid Ozone: 720 runs per month * 150 per run / 25 per ice = 4320 blocks of hisec ice per month

Medium: 20 fuel blocks per hour, 14400 fuel blocks per month, 360 runs per month
* Isotopes: 360 runs per month * 400 per run / 300 per ice = 480 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Heavy Water: 360 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 1080 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Liquid Ozone: 360 runs per month * 150 per run / 25 per ice = 2160 blocks of hisec ice per month

Small: 10 fuel blocks per hour, 7200 fuel blocks per month, 180 runs per month
* Isotopes: 180 runs per month * 400 per run / 300 per ice = 240 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Heavy Water: 180 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 540 blocks of hisec ice per month
* Liquid Ozone: 180 runs per month * 150 per run / 25 per ice = 1080 blocks of hisec ice per month


Unless you mine dark glitter which yields 1000 Liquid Ozone per block, than you would only need 108 blocks. if you are brave enough to mine in low or null. plenty of back water systems that are well worth the risk.
Heavy water is so cheap to buy considering the only other use for it is ore compression in a Roqual. you can buy it very cheap. certainly not worth the effort of mining 2160 blocks of high sec ice just for the heavy water.

Even a large POS is very easy for a solo player to keep running if you know what you are doing. the key is to make enough isk per month using the tower for it to be worth while. If you can sell the fuel for more than the POS makes you than it is just a waste. Most high sec solo POSes make their owners enough isk they don't bother with making their own fuel, they just buy it. The only hard part is raising the capital to get it all started. Not that that is very hard.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#19 - 2012-05-10 10:42:18 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Medium: 20 fuel blocks per hour, 14400 fuel blocks per month, 360 runs per month

* Heavy Water: 360 runs per month * 150 per run / 50 per ice = 1080 blocks of hisec ice per month




Confirming indeed 1080 blocks is 9-12 Orcas depending on Cargohold fit...and 10-12 hours if 2 Macks and a Hulk are used.

Reduce all values by 20% for a Pirate Elite Tower.

This allows sales of the Isotopes left over to fund the needed LOz plus extra. We like extra.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882