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An open letter to CCP, the Gallente, and ORE on Mining Ships.
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Entous
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-05-01 00:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Entous
FT Diomedes wrote:
Really? You want to engage in non-consensual PvP in a mining ship? I don't care if the damn thing is a mining Titan. It's a dead ship if someone wants to engage it. A couple of guns mounted on your mining ship are absolutely useless. Let's assume this hypothetical "hybrid" ship actually exists... and is actually good at everything (which it would have to be not to be absolutely useless)..


Thats pretty much the exact opposite of what I'm proposing. The actual miners above get it at least though.

We do not want a hybrid. We also do not want more of the ORE junk. Especially not more of this 3-minute cycle junk that makes it favorable for alts and bots. We need options. Most others want fat targets in high sec so they can defend their null-sec carebear-miners, most of which are probably alt-miners.

Yes, I said it, null-sec carebears. If you are mining in the center of alliance space and you are a member of that alliance, guess what, you are actually 100x safer than your high-sec brethren. Congratulations on taking the easy way out. You have no problem sitting in your paper mining box. And since you gank paper mining boxes on your main, of course you don't want them changed. Well, guess what? I don't want them changed either. I want the ORE ships relegated to null sec where they can rot.

What we want is ships with mobility. Okay, so I can fit a hulk to take on a single catalyst. What happens? Two more show up. That's still ~30-60mil vs 500mil. How many other ships in eve can take out a ship 8-15x it's cost? How fast would a Tengu owner be screaming on the boards if a 300m fitted ship soloed him? Let's even assume they are even skilled. Well, you'd see the same kind of post from that Tengu owner. I do not want to sit there and pray to survive a single sided fight. I want a mining ship designed with everything other then 'You have to sit in perfectly safe territory to make a profit'. That's what we are being turned into as miners, and I do not like it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#22 - 2012-05-01 00:16:09 UTC
Tengus get soloed all the time in high sec. Check out GHSC's killboards. They insta-pop loot-pinata high sec Tengus with Tier 3 BCs. So, you have 2-3b ISK ships/fits killed by 120m ISK ships/fits. The rage posts are quite hilarious.

At least you do seem to understand that 0.0, when properly policed by a strong alliance, is safer than high sec. That is a good thing. That is what makes Eve a good place.

The 3-minute cycle timer makes the Hulk pilot that much more of a target. If he is greedy and waits for his cycle to finish, he may end up dead. Yes, that makes it less mobile. It's the trade off for having an awesome mining ship.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-05-01 00:57:59 UTC
I think they should nerf the Hulk's tank to shuttle levels and its align time to freighter levels. Ten minute cycle times. 5 m3 drone bays. The more idiots that get popped and quit mining the better.
Entous
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-05-01 04:07:53 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
At least you do seem to understand that 0.0, when properly policed by a strong alliance, is safer than high sec. That is a good thing. That is what makes Eve a good place.


Correct, however I also understand that if too many of the high sec miners move to null-sec, then the majority of the minerals will just stay in low sec for construction to keep an alliance going. By keeping miners happy with goals, and the ability through training to get a mining platform that the active miner can keep himself alive by being crafty and alert, we'll keep the powerhouse of less-than-nox minerals coming from high-sec.

If that balance shifts, bad days are ahead. Do you want to be forced by your faction to start mining veldspar? I don't want you to any more than I want to fly a paper ship. I just would like something to work towards when every refining skill is at V and I can already fly a perfect orca. A Gallente Mining Drone boat, an Amarr ship that funnels shield damage through the lasers while they are firing (hull has to fill sometime, hope they are trying to run), there are plenty of ideas out there to innovate the mining ship lines besides these horrendous ships that benefit the alt miner or bots more than the active miner.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#25 - 2012-05-01 09:32:34 UTC
Entous wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
At least you do seem to understand that 0.0, when properly policed by a strong alliance, is safer than high sec. That is a good thing. That is what makes Eve a good place.


Correct, however I also understand that if too many of the high sec miners move to null-sec, then the majority of the minerals will just stay in low sec for construction to keep an alliance going. By keeping miners happy with goals, and the ability through training to get a mining platform that the active miner can keep himself alive by being crafty and alert, we'll keep the powerhouse of less-than-nox minerals coming from high-sec.



An active miner can watch local for known gankers.
An active miner can use short range d-scans to keep up on what ships are in warp towards the miner.
An active miner can keep aligned to either celestials or bookmarks to allow him to circle the roid.
An active miner can fit cargo rigs to reduce speed and keep his speed at 75% to reduce the frequency of re-aligns.
An active miner can keep his speed lower than 75% if he thinks the reduction in re-alignment is worth the increased risk of not being able to insta-warp.

Sounds like the Hulk is a platform that the active miner can keep himself alive by being crafty and alert.


CCP hasn't introduced new mining ships because they have said that the Hulk is going to be the highest yield ship, and they realize that nobody's going to bother flying any new ship that mines less.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nihassa
RvB Industries
#26 - 2012-05-01 10:17:01 UTC
Entous wrote:
or mining cloaking ships? Of course not.


Fit cloak to hulk,
find quiet system,
cloak when local goes up,
make cup of tea while they go away,
listen to reggae,
profit.
xOm3gAx
Stain of Mind
#27 - 2012-05-01 13:01:47 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Entous wrote:
Am I calling for mining battle ships, or mining cloaking ships?


Why not?

No, seriously, why not?

Right now you've got two options for high-risk mining:

1) Head out in a paper mache mining barge and pray no one spots you, because spotted = dead. And even the Hulk, with a whopping five medium drones is barely enough protection to deal with even 0.4 rats, and that's assuming you've completely maxed your drone & tanking skills before heading out. Cthulhu help you if an actual player ship shows up.

2) Kit out a full fledged dreadnaught for PvP action, try to sneak some mining drones into your bay, and take home pissant little 200-300m3 loads while hoping no one figures out what your doing.

Hence, the only ships fit for mining can't fend off a school of angry hamsters with any hope of survival, and the ships that can actually survive (i.e. warships) are worthless as miners.

We need a hybrid, and we need it badly.

Now I'm not talking about a mining barge with sixteen turrets or Titan class shields. That's just going too far. But honestly, would it kill CCP to make a new class of mining barge that had, say, even just two or three actual weapon mounts? I mean, we're only talking Medium turrets, here.

For example, and this is just an example, imagine a T2 "Hazard Miner" design as an alternative to the Hulk:
Covetor frame (like the Hulk), same 4000m3 cargo (less than the Hulk), slightly higher shield/armor/resist than the Hulk (so it can actually tank a little better), two strip miner mounts (less than the Hulk), between two to four Medium turret mounts (about dang time!), expand drone capacity to 250m3 and 125 bandwidth (can now use Heavy Drones for protection, and more of them), and throw in the transport ship +2 warp bonus (flee!) to remind people, oh yeah, it's still not a warship, don't try to fly it like one. After all, it's not like it's getting weapon bonuses - only the usual mining and resists for skill levels. An actual warship with the exact same weapons is still going to do more damage, obviously.

Such a design would be inferior to Hulk in terms of raw mining potential - in fact, it's actual mining potential would be no more than that of the Covetor that it's made from. However, in terms of combat survivability it would obviously be superior to the Hulk. That combat power, of course, still does not compare to a well fitted battlecruiser or anything, but would at least be enough to let it handle rats better and maybe buy much needed time to escape from gankers. It would still be at risk, but it wouldn't be helpeless - which is more than could be said of all current mining barges.

Best of all, the ganker crowd could stop complaining about "carebear whining" because there would be a lot less "carebear whining" if they could actually shoot back for a change. Though I suspect that would simply get replaced with an even greater amount of "ganker whining" because, oh yeah, their victims could actually shoot back for a change. Blink


Death Toll007 wrote:
Great idea,

adding diversity to the mining profession would cause more miners. +1

Let's relook at the original concept of industrials as well: Mobile construction facilities, not glorified cargoholds.

As as avid PvPer I support the mining and industrial community. The more industrialists and miners there are... the more supply of goods, and our PvP costs decrease.... WIN!!!

-DT


And I give props to you for being a PvPer with a brain. It's amazing how many people can't figure out such a simple concept. I salute thee! Big smile


You don't need a hybrid you need friends and an active corporation with multiple members so that multiple members can mine while multiple members defend. This is a multiplayer game you know. Your entire complaint is based upon trying to fly by yourself. Its a multiplayer game, get friends.

Also, do you even know how to fly safe? Watch local perhaps? Keep an eye on your D-Scanner? GTFO at the first sign of anyone your not comfortable flying into null in your pod with?
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#28 - 2012-05-01 13:05:06 UTC
Rather than crying to CCP, why don't you learn how to play Eve properly?
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-02 01:47:39 UTC
You are right. While mining ships can do many things including fitting WCS, they are easy targets that are hard to secure with little reward or payout to those who defend them.

I have proposed a new module already called the Combat Strip Miner. When engaged against a target ship, it damages the modules and structure. They basically mine the ore out of the ship itself by harmonizing with the shield to bypass it and attack the modules and hull directly. A variation on this idea would be to require them to go through the base armor hp first; the armor plates being modules that could be mined out directly. Any variation of this idea could be really fun and interesting and easy to explain. Some kind of sacrifice may be integrated into use against ships to offset and counter any offensive pvp potential.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#30 - 2012-05-02 01:50:10 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
You are right. While mining ships can do many things including fitting WCS, they are easy targets that are hard to secure with little reward or payout to those who defend them.

I have proposed a new module already called the Combat Strip Miner. When engaged against a target ship, it damages the modules and structure. They basically mine the ore out of the ship itself by harmonizing with the shield to bypass it and attack the modules and hull directly. A variation on this idea would be to require them to go through the base armor hp first; the armor plates being modules that could be mined out directly. Any variation of this idea could be really fun and interesting and easy to explain. Some kind of sacrifice may be integrated into use against ships to offset and counter any offensive pvp potential.


Armor Tanking doesn't need more buffs.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-05-02 07:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: July Oumis
The Hulk soon will cost 400 mil, with a tank a T1 cruiser can achieve easily. This ship is the Top of the Line Exhumer, the "backbone" of mining. As active tank, it can be killed by 1-3 destroyers in Highsec.

If you need to bring 2-3 Tornados (20-36k Alpha) to kill it, it would be much more balanced.

I'm not a miner at all, but even a Tengu can be fitted to tank enough Tornados to make it "safer" in Highsec, if you are willing to lose some DPS.


I also don't want a "200k ehp fully yield fitted" Hulk, but maybe the ability to fit a LSE and a DMG control + the usual 3 miners and 2 MLUs.
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#32 - 2012-05-02 07:58:43 UTC
July Oumis wrote:
maybe the ability to fit a LSE and a DMG control + the usual 3 miners and 2 MLUs.




Sounds like you want the moon on a stick, tbh.
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-05-02 08:14:01 UTC
Looking at the stats and the recent changes in Mining/ Drone Mats the Hulk needs some love. Sooner or later CCP will react.

One lousy LSE + maybe a third low isn't even close to whatever you said I wanted.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#34 - 2012-05-02 09:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
July Oumis wrote:
The Hulk soon will cost 400 mil, with a tank a T1 cruiser can achieve easily. This ship is the Top of the Line Exhumer, the "backbone" of mining. As active tank, it can be killed by 1-3 destroyers in Highsec.


Well, there's your problem.

Quote:

I also don't want a "200k ehp fully yield fitted" Hulk, but maybe the ability to fit a LSE and a DMG control + the usual 3 miners and 2 MLUs.


Give a Hulk that ability, and I guarantee you that the extra CPU will be used to fit a third MLU and you'll be back complaining in 3 months.

More yield will drive prices down in direct relation to the increase in yield (now that mining will finally be the prime source of minerals again, this is actually going to be true). So if you want a bigger tank on the Hulk, you will need to sacrifice some yield. Increasing its stats doesn't change that, since those stat increases also allow for a higher yield as an alternative.

The Hulk is designed to do two things. 1) Mine the ever-loving shit out of some asteroids, and 2) Operate solo in NullSec

The thinking behind 2) is often misunderstood in the same way the idea of a sandbox is. A Sandbox is somewhere where you can do whatever you want *UNTIL* someone else comes by and pisses in your cheerios. Operating a Hulk solo in NullSec is perfectly viable *UNTIL* someone comes by and decides that you should have breakfast in the rain. Same thing goes for HiSec and suicide ganks.

Besides, no ship modifications (within reason) will materially alter the relationship between the cost of a hulk and the cost to gank the hulk. It is almost always cheaper to gank a ship than it is to buy that ship.



July Oumis wrote:
Looking at the stats and the recent changes in Mining/ Drone Mats the Hulk needs some love. Sooner or later CCP will react.

One lousy LSE + maybe a third low isn't even close to whatever you said I wanted.


The Hulk pilot just got an ENORMOUS boost in income and you're saying that it now needs a buff? Really? What?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Corbin Blair
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-05-02 09:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Corbin Blair
xOm3gAx wrote:
Teh Frog wrote:
Wat


tl; dr

He wants a hulk that uses mining drones like their strip miners. Or strippers. It was a tad confusing.

If there's one thing all gallente can agree on it's that strippers and drones are awesome.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#36 - 2012-05-02 11:02:14 UTC
Corbin Blair wrote:

If there's one thing all gallente can agree on it's that strippers and drones are awesome.


This.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-05-02 11:19:13 UTC
The thing is: If you like to to PvE noone forces you to fly a DS/ Faction Fit Tengu, which can be killed by two Tornados in 1.0 Sec. You can go for a passive NH, Navy Scorp, Rattlesnake or whatever fit it with T2 mods and go for it.
If sb wants to gank you, he will, but with a lot more effort than bringing 3 Destroyers.

I never sat in a Hulk, nor do I have indu skills in any kind, but when I look at a Hulk in EFT i realize it's ****.
I really don't understand, why the emotions of some ppl run wild, when it comes to slightly improve the possibility to bring the ehp of a T2 ship closer to a T1 cruiser hull.

The mining yield would be slightly higher if sb really wants to mine without any buffer in a 400 mil ship, but the other guy who wants to tank his ship would have the possibility to do so.

[Hulk, maybe ]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5


This would have 36k ehp, which isn't that much if you take no further actions. (Imps, Boost Alt)
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-05-02 11:26:02 UTC


[Thorax, random ]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

500 DPS
41k ehp
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#39 - 2012-05-02 13:31:06 UTC
July Oumis wrote:

[Hulk, maybe ]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5

This would have 36k ehp, which isn't that much if you take no further actions. (Imps, Boost Alt)

And then you will have :
[Hulk, maybe ]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

-
-
-
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

cargo hold rigs*2


Medium Harverster Drone x5

And two weeks later : "ouin my ship is destroy buff it now" ; or "ouin ganker are bad boys take them out from highsec". Though even a 36k ehp hulk will still die and lead to the same tears.

The solution to your problem is :
[Abaddon, mining BS ]
CPU II*2
Damage Control II
cargohold expander II *2
Mining Laser Upgrade II *3

-
-
-
Survey Scanner II

Mining Laser II *8

Cargo hold rigs *2

Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5

I have another solution for you miners too : maybe you could organize yourselves into a cartel sharing gankers name, and share an intel channel where you track these gankers names and corps and their position. Organize yourselves, its a MMO.

Though, OP may be right : some other ships than the ORE one, with less yield than hulk, but more abilities may be useful, but you can already do a lot of things with standard ships and mining lasers. Maybe if you develop these techniques with standard ships, then CCP will give you something better at doing it ; that is often the way it work : how many years it took to get a noctis ? Though destroyers did it fine until they come. Even mining ships came after people extensively used mining battleship in the old days.

Stop asking a tanking hulk please, you will not have one, or it will always be killed by a few destroyers in seconds. Gankers will always adapt to kill you, get used to it, and adapt too.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#40 - 2012-05-02 16:47:57 UTC
Entous wrote:
Typical gallente nonsense and propaganda


You deluded gallente pilots have always had a misguided notion of freedom. Mine under the competent leadership of a caldari FC in a warship and I am sure you can find a way to increase your yield either through drones or stip miners or whatever.


Caldari FTW
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