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Pulse vs Auto canon
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#41 - 2012-04-30 23:47:28 UTC
Moroccan Tourist wrote:

Quote:

[Hurricane, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
50W Infectious Power System Malfunction
[empty high slot]

And has enough PG left to fit all other non PG hungry mods needed


I just want to fit the same damn thing on a harbinger ! is that too much to ask?


And next you'll be asking for it to have the same sig radius and nano just as well as the Hurricane too? I'm all in favor of a fitting buff to the Harbinger, but I don't delude myself into thinking it's necessary.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Haulie Berry
#42 - 2012-05-01 00:14:09 UTC
Wait, wait, wait.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that lasers and projectiles have different stats?

How can this be?!?!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-05-01 05:00:03 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that lasers and projectiles have different stats?


Yes. Because Winmatar should win always and mostly they do. Just check K/D ratios. Lasers have been nerfed so many times. Lasers used to be good. A long time ago. That's just not possible anymore. Drake could solo that Geddon nowadays.
Darex Nidor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-05-01 06:52:10 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Moroccan Tourist wrote:

The harbinger for example can't be fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse and a 1600 plate (PG +5%) , which is stupid .
The cane can fit 6 x 425 and 1 plate and has like 355 pg left .

The cane can fit 6x425, 1600plate AND 2xNEUT, 2xHAM OR 2xHML (with a few ACRs/Reactor Control Units).
The extra 2 slots is what makes the cane astonishingly good.

2xneut is lolol good with capless weapons and ensures supremacy over harbinger in fights (also great vs frigs).
The Harbinger gets owned by neuts, and struggles with cap to use even ONE neut (the racial EWAR of Amarr!)
Let's not even go into the superior speed of the Cane and ability to choose damage types.
Canes can easily switch to therm or EM ammo vs the Harbinger (while neuting it!) while the Harby can only use EM/Therm, the worst resist types vs the Cane.

Yes, Hurricane is like Drake, needs bit nerfhammer Twisted
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-05-01 07:33:10 UTC
A drake can't solo a geddon unless the geddon is awful.

Hurricanes are nowhere near as good as people keep making them out to be, especially with t3 bcs everywhere.
Sutha Moliko
Giza'Msafara
#46 - 2012-05-01 07:58:59 UTC
Unbelievable... Again the "Winmatar"

If one cannot see the difference bewteen weapon systems (extreme optimal + low falloff vs low optimal + extreme falloff). His cause is over.
The problem for a pilot using Scorch is : How can I stay at my optimal range ?
Trying to compare Pulse vs AC without taking in account T2 ammo is pointess especially with Pulse. Scorch is the key. Same goes with Barrage and bonused fallof ships and/or enhanced by TE.

Since the blaster + null buff, if you think AC still rules at close range. Your cause is really over.

However, long range weapon systems is another story. Wait and see what CCP will do with ship balancing.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-05-01 20:34:09 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Yes. Because Winmatar should win always and mostly they do. Just check K/D ratios. Lasers have been nerfed so many times. Lasers used to be good. A long time ago. That's just not possible anymore. Drake could solo that Geddon nowadays.


I hope you realize there haven't been any significant changes to either Geddons or Drakes since that video was made.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-05-01 20:38:41 UTC
Sutha Moliko wrote:
Unbelievable... Again the "Winmatar"

If one cannot see the difference bewteen weapon systems (extreme optimal + low falloff vs low optimal + extreme falloff). His cause is over.
The problem for a pilot using Scorch is : How can I stay at my optimal range ?
Trying to compare Pulse vs AC without taking in account T2 ammo is pointess especially with Pulse. Scorch is the key. Same goes with Barrage and bonused fallof ships and/or enhanced by TE.

Since the blaster + null buff, if you think AC still rules at close range. Your cause is really over.

However, long range weapon systems is another story. Wait and see what CCP will do with ship balancing.


The pure amount of damage and range of ACs is not out of line.
What makes ACs so great on Minmatar ships is they can control the distance well because they are faster than other races.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Demolishar
United Aggression
#49 - 2012-05-01 22:13:34 UTC
I used to complain about Minmatar being OP then i trained Minmatar.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-01 22:18:49 UTC
Demolishar wrote:
I used to complain about Minmatar being OP then i trained Minmatar.


Yeah, unfortunately it's the only way.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2012-05-02 02:26:46 UTC
I have yet to lose to a Cane in a Harbinger..

Maybe i'm special?

People really don't seem to quite realize the effects of falloff.. A typical nanocane does around 400 dps at the 20 km range

A good harbi does 6-700...

The problem is that if the harbinger is winning the cane can just.. you know.. **** off?


As for the Neuts, A harbinger can kill a Cane way before its neuted (Not saying it WILL, but it can)


Lazors might be slightly underwhelming.. But they aren't massively under-powered either.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#52 - 2012-05-02 03:26:41 UTC
Hell I like lasers so much, I frequently use them on my ferox.

There are 3 issues imo
harbinger needs a bit more pg the pulse lasers themselves are fine
Beam lasers should kinda be looked at, there are very few times when scortch doesn't obsolete them.
Phantasm needs its missing slot.
Tetonica
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-05-02 07:00:17 UTC
I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:

No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.

No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility

No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)

Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank

What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.

It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.

Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-05-02 08:18:34 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
People really don't seem to quite realize the effects of falloff.. A typical nanocane does around 400 dps at the 20 km range

A good harbi does 6-700...


Harbinger does 600-700 dps @ 6km. That's with ammo with tracking penalty. Tracking is bad with pulses at that range anyway.
Jaketh Ivanes
Rigorous Rivals
#55 - 2012-05-02 08:41:06 UTC
Tetonica wrote:
I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:

No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.

No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility

No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)

Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank

What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.

It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.

Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about


I agree, as a first step. 2nd would be to look at Weapon vs Ship bonuses. Amarr ships should keep their Cap bonus so Lasers are only really viable on Amarr ships. Likewise should Projectile only really be viable on Minmatar ships and Hybrid only really viable on Gallente ships. RoF could be the "fixing" attribute for Minmatar and Tracking for hyrid.
Moroccan Tourist
Blood Raider Cleaning Crew
#56 - 2012-05-02 11:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Moroccan Tourist
Tetonica wrote:
I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:

No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.

No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility

No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)

Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank

What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.

It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.

Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about


I didnt say we should be able to fit highest tank highest guns and utility slots , but you can't even fit this
Quote:
[Harbinger, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Even with a fitting rig it is still way off the mark +3% PG needed , is that even normal without any cap booster or a neut ? When an armour cane can fit a Neut + MWD + a full rack of tier 3 guns + 1600 plate without any fitting mods !
And why the amarr doesn't have 3 classes of pulses like everyone else? something that would fit between the 132 - 231 PG mark !
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-05-02 11:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunkwill Khashour
Jaketh Ivanes wrote:

I agree, as a first step. 2nd would be to look at Weapon vs Ship bonuses. Amarr ships should keep their Cap bonus so Lasers are only really viable on Amarr ships. Likewise should Projectile only really be viable on Minmatar ships and Hybrid only really viable on Gallente ships. RoF could be the "fixing" attribute for Minmatar and Tracking for hyrid.


Why should a weapon type only be viable on a single ship? If you're willing to lose a bonus, you should be able to surprise your opponent. Moreover, Minmatar don't need ROF and Gallente don't need tracking. Amarr however still have worst cap use even after the cap use bonus and even after big Amarr natural capacitors.

At this point however, projectiles are viable/competitive on any Amarr ship with one bonus to lasers. Lasers suffer from lack of downsizing options to increase tracking, fitting and cap use.

This is hidden because Scorch is the best ammo in the game. Lasers + Scorch is ok-ish, over all shipclasses I'ld say subpar but on the BS fleet-level strong.

IMO: Buff lasers, adjust Scorch accordingly.
Jhelom
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-05-02 13:08:48 UTC
Just a couple of minor suggestions from an Amarr pilot:

Increase laz0r dmg
Decrease laz0r cap usage
Increase laz0r range + optimal.
enable optional God-mode for Amarr pilots
Provide complimentary 12-pack of Amarr pilot's beer of choice

/Takes a bow
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-05-02 14:13:32 UTC
Jhelom wrote:
Just a couple of minor suggestions from an Amarr pilot:

Increase laz0r dmg
Decrease laz0r cap usage
Increase laz0r range + optimal.
enable optional God-mode for Amarr pilots
Provide complimentary 12-pack of Amarr pilot's beer of choice

/Takes a bow



You forgot:
Change laser to laz0r
Tetonica
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-05-02 18:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tetonica
Moroccan Tourist wrote:
Even with a fitting rig it is still way off the mark +3% PG needed , is that even normal without any cap booster or a neut ? When an armour cane can fit a Neut + MWD + a full rack of tier 3 guns + 1600 plate without any fitting mods !
And why the amarr doesn't have 3 classes of pulses like everyone else? something that would fit between the 132 - 231 PG mark !


Did you bother reading my post? I SPECIFICALLY stated that minmatar might do with a bit of toning down fittings wise(less pg overall or more pg usage for guns)

Drake cannot fit mwd, hams, dual lse and medium neut
Ferox cannot fit neutrons, mwd, dual lse and neut(nevermind the injector to run it all)
Brutix cannot fit neutrons, mwd, and 1600
Myrm cannot either

So why should the harb be a special snowflake(with the cane) and be able to?

Here's a clue for you: There MUST be a choice between gun sizes, tank size and utility mods. This creates options and ability to adapt to new situations. The cane and other minmatar ships currently break this mold but in all honestly I think people on these forums blow this way out of proportion. In very small gang, yes, utility is handy to have, but once you get to a certain gang size(which isn't very big) it's not really a deciding factor.

I've never really had much of a problem with them, regardless of what I've been flying. I've gladly taken harbs up against a gang of canes(either shield or armour fit) and won a lot more than I've lost.

Now if you wanna go nano around null all day then by all means take your cane out. That's what they do. It's minmatar. It's what it SHOULD do. Stop trying to make other bc's into cane copies. With a few exceptions(tier 1), bc's are balanced well amongst each other.

BC's have all **** all over a large portion of the game and you people keep trying to insist on balancing them UPWARDS, which really boggles my mind. How about instead of trying to poop all over the game so you don't need to risk precious brain recources on ship fitting(which may mean some people here may forget to breathe), you figure out how to fit your ships to a certain situation? I personally tend to think that's a better idea than crying for a buff here, then two months later crying for a nerf cause suddenly it's OP

But I admit it's possible I'm stupid and just been very lucky in pvp for the last 4-5 years Cool