These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

@CCP - breach of national laws

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#121 - 2012-05-01 21:53:03 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2012-05-01 21:54:20 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
I am not a layer but a programmer with a Masters degree in Software Engineering. An important topic is "ethics". We, as programmers, are often asked to build something that is against privacy laws. Our duty is to point this out and even refuse to help with breaking the law..

In this case CCP did not, intentionaly, break any laws.. as the API was build with a good intention. But right now, parts of the API, are abused in breaking laws. CCP needs to act on this, maybe even change the API.

In almost every country it is against the law to make private information public, like mails. Nobody will go to court over this, thats for sure. I hope CCP received the message and will act upon and do the "ethical" thing.


You sent those mails to members of your alliance. Those members are free to do what they want with those mails.




This is not exactly true in some cases. If you sent an email to someone in confidence with the expectation of privacy and the content turns out to be damaging and is deliberately made publc by the recipient, the recipent has broken the law. While he will probably not go to jail, he could lose quite a bit in court depending on the damages.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-05-01 21:55:24 UTC
Internet lawyer here! There is no expectation of privacy, OP. Go cry in a corner now with your dunce hat.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#124 - 2012-05-01 21:56:27 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
I am not a layer but a programmer with a Masters degree in Software Engineering. An important topic is "ethics". We, as programmers, are often asked to build something that is against privacy laws. Our duty is to point this out and even refuse to help with breaking the law..

In this case CCP did not, intentionaly, break any laws.. as the API was build with a good intention. But right now, parts of the API, are abused in breaking laws. CCP needs to act on this, maybe even change the API.

In almost every country it is against the law to make private information public, like mails. Nobody will go to court over this, thats for sure. I hope CCP received the message and will act upon and do the "ethical" thing.


You sent those mails to members of your alliance. Those members are free to do what they want with those mails.




This is not exactly true in some cases. If you sent an email to someone in confidence with the expectation of privacy and the content turns out to be damaging and is deliberately made publc by the recipient, the recipent has broken the law. While he will probably not go to jail, he could lose quite a bit in court depending on the damages.


It can only be damaging in the world of eve. Unless you are having an affair THROUGH EVE MAILS THROUGH ALLIANCE MAIL then no judge will even take the case. They will laugh at you. You have no damages from something in a video game.
Internet Lawyer Steve
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-05-01 21:57:12 UTC
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
Internet lawyer here! There is no expectation of privacy, OP. Go cry in a corner now with your dunce hat.


Please do not follow Karadion Kohlar. She has been disbarred from the New Eden Lawyers Association.



Internet Lawyer Steve and Associates,

Bringing Justice to New Eden, One post at a time...
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#126 - 2012-05-01 21:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.


Tell him I said ouch!!

Buuuuuurn

Barbara Nichole wrote:



This is not exactly true in some cases. If you sent an email to someone in confidence with the expectation of privacy and the content turns out to be damaging and is deliberately made publc by the recipient, the recipent has broken the law. While he will probably not go to jail, he could lose quite a bit in court depending on the damages.


so.... nothing given ISK has no real world value.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

roboto212
EVE University
Ivy League
#127 - 2012-05-01 21:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: roboto212
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
I am not a layer but a programmer with a Masters degree in Software Engineering. An important topic is "ethics". We, as programmers, are often asked to build something that is against privacy laws. Our duty is to point this out and even refuse to help with breaking the law..

In this case CCP did not, intentionaly, break any laws.. as the API was build with a good intention. But right now, parts of the API, are abused in breaking laws. CCP needs to act on this, maybe even change the API.

In almost every country it is against the law to make private information public, like mails. Nobody will go to court over this, thats for sure. I hope CCP received the message and will act upon and do the "ethical" thing.


You sent those mails to members of your alliance. Those members are free to do what they want with those mails.




This is not exactly true in some cases. If you sent an email to someone in confidence with the expectation of privacy and the content turns out to be damaging and is deliberately made publc by the recipient, the recipent has broken the law. While he will probably not go to jail, he could lose quite a bit in court depending on the damages.

Dear dumb azz you waived the expectation of privacy when you agreed to the eula specifically because Ccp foresaw corporate espionage and wanted to be safe from this issue. So if you type it in game you have the same expectation of privacy as if you published in a news paper.
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2012-05-01 21:59:17 UTC
Internet Lawyer Steve wrote:
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
Internet lawyer here! There is no expectation of privacy, OP. Go cry in a corner now with your dunce hat.


Please do not follow Karadion Kohlar. She has been disbarred from the New Eden Lawyers Association.




I never applied to the New Eden Lawyers Association. I am a certified member of the GoonSwarm Federation Lawyers Association though.
Shian Yang
#129 - 2012-05-01 22:02:43 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


Greetings capsuleer,

Throughout human history people have sought to secure their lines of communication. Millenia ago the Summerian traders would seal and bake tokens of commerce within clay tablets to secure them. Emperor Augustus used a simple shift cipher to secure his messages. As those interested in reading those messages became more adept, so more complex ciphers and means of communication evolved.

With the advent of electronics and now, in New Eden, we see vast processing arrays and multi-dimensional geometric encryption. Note how the Caldari encrypt their business transactions to keep them safe from prying eyes.

You need to decide what information you release and in which format you do so. To paint your battle plans on a Nidhogger and park it outside Jita would be foolish. You would not do it. Thus, knowing this is an unsecure medium, do not send confidential or secret information in plaintext using this.

Adjust and adapt. The security of your communication is your job.

Regards,

Shian Yang
Geil Ding
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2012-05-01 22:04:00 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.


I am no layer, but as a developer I ain't allowed to make certain information public. This website and the use of the API has red flags all over them. I just here to point the red flags for you guys to make an educated decision.

As a player I really find this wrong. Meta gaming and spying has always been a part of EvE, but this is wrong. There is no interaction anymore, everything is automated.
Cunanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-05-01 22:05:37 UTC
highonpop wrote:




1 - We are not all in Germany
2 - Germany's legal precedents don't hold any water on the international scope
3 - This is not even a legal issue because you signed away those privacy rights when you accepted the EULA


/endthread


1. CCP does business in Germany and is thus prosecutable under German Law, reference Italian and German (and now EU) cases against Google for You Tube.

2. Privacy and accountability are held at different levels based on national law, are defined by nations, and are enforced by said nations. In the case for Google vs Italy, a mentally disabled boy was recorded and said video was posted on you tube. Google was found to be negligent for the privacy breach, even though Google never video taped the boy, nor posted the video(although they removed the video immediately after being notified of the offensive nature of the video), though the case is now in appeals.

3. EULA and TOS have been ruled against as legally binding documents. I can put in a EULA/TOS that I have the right to harvest your organs, doesn't make it legal. There is a rather outstanding case against Microsoft and their exceptionally brutal EULA/TOS in Windows XP that was overturned in US courts. I have a little fuzy as to the nature of the dispute, but it had to do with installing the OS on multiple computers. If I remember correctly Microsoft was trying to say that every computer needed a unique OS, even if said owner built a new computer or simply changed mobo/cpu. It was ruled that the user had purchased a single license of Windows XP and was legally permitted to run a single license of Windows XP, regardless of the computer in which it was running without breaching copy right protections.


That all being said, I don't believe that disclosure of evemails is a breach of any form of privacy, though if information is contained within that media, it may be ruled by some of the more conservative nations that it is. I just thing the OP needs to stop bitching so much.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#132 - 2012-05-01 22:07:27 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.


I am no layer, but as a developer I ain't allowed to make certain information public. This website and the use of the API has red flags all over them. I just here to point the red flags for you guys to make an educated decision.

As a player I really find this wrong. Meta gaming and spying has always been a part of EvE, but this is wrong. There is no interaction anymore, everything is automated.



Ah, Sreeqs, Youre feeding the troll. Man you should know better

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

roboto212
EVE University
Ivy League
#133 - 2012-05-01 22:08:36 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.


I am no layer, but as a developer I ain't allowed to make certain information public. This website and the use of the API has red flags all over them. I just here to point the red flags for you guys to make an educated decision.

As a player I really find this wrong. Meta gaming and spying has always been a part of EvE, but this is wrong. There is no interaction anymore, everything is automated.

So your real problem is that the proliferation of gathered intelligence is done in a public and automated manor. Well to bad htfu.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#134 - 2012-05-01 22:09:55 UTC
Edward Anthony Cullen wrote:
highonpop wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:


k, now go do as I suggested and find the one that actually pertains to this situation. Where a player of a video game sued someone else in the same game so that a legal precedence was made to prevent someone from outing their in game emails. Cause then the ppl that wanna crucify Mittani would have yet more ammo.



1 - We are not all in Germany
2 - Germany's legal precedents don't hold any water on the international scope
3 - This is not even a legal issue because you signed away those privacy rights when you accepted the EULA


/endthread


um... read what he said again cause I dont see anything where dude said "yes that german law applies here"

Quote:
k, now go do as I suggested and find the one that actually pertains to this situation. Where a player of a video game sued someone else in the same game so that a legal precedence was made to prevent someone from outing their in game emails


nope, dont see anything about Germany.


eew agreeing with a Twitard

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#135 - 2012-05-01 22:12:42 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.


I am no layer, but as a developer I ain't allowed to make certain information public. This website and the use of the API has red flags all over them. I just here to point the red flags for you guys to make an educated decision.

As a player I really find this wrong. Meta gaming and spying has always been a part of EvE, but this is wrong. There is no interaction anymore, everything is automated.



Ah, Sreeqs, Youre feeding the troll. Man you should know better


Sorry I am no layer

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#136 - 2012-05-01 22:16:25 UTC
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
Internet Lawyer Steve wrote:
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
Internet lawyer here! There is no expectation of privacy, OP. Go cry in a corner now with your dunce hat.


Please do not follow Karadion Kohlar. She has been disbarred from the New Eden Lawyers Association.




I never applied to the New Eden Lawyers Association. I am a certified member of the GoonSwarm Federation Lawyers Association though.



Which is not recognized by the new Eden supreme court.
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#137 - 2012-05-01 22:17:33 UTC
Serious, this is all part of the game. Don't like it? deal with it! You can't expect CCP to hold your hand and help you to weed out spies. It's up to you how to do that, that's what makes EvE great, you choose how to play, and if there's an obstacle, you find ways around it, or how to remove it. Not cry to CCP that it's unfair.

Also check EULA, it's very clear that all ingame communication in Eve (mail included) is public, in other words CCP expected something like this would happen someday. Time to up your recruitement standards.

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Internet Lawyer Steve
Doomheim
#138 - 2012-05-01 22:19:15 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Sorry I am no layer



Internet Lawyer Steve on the scene...

There are enough Internet Lawyers in New Eden. I am glad you are a Layer instead. However I must ask, my associates are dying of curiosity, Is that a 7 layer burrito or do you lay tile, bricks or other forms or things that need laying?



Internet Lawyer Steve and Associates,

Bringing Justice to New Eden, One post at a time...
roboto212
EVE University
Ivy League
#139 - 2012-05-01 22:19:54 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.

I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.

I am no layer, but as a developer I ain't allowed to make certain information public. This website and the use of the API has red flags all over them. I just here to point the red flags for you guys to make an educated decision.

As a player I really find this wrong. Meta gaming and spying has always been a part of EvE, but

Ah, Sreeqs, Youre feeding the troll. Man you should know better


Sorry I am no layer[/quote]

For the record I am no layer too.
Geil Ding
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-05-01 22:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Geil Ding
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Sorry I am no layer


edit: I had no intention to make any reference to any war