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So I heard you like leaked alliance mails.

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Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#41 - 2012-05-01 06:09:16 UTC
A good spy is the one you never hear about.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#42 - 2012-05-01 06:33:52 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
Good corp name: "Conspicuous Spies."


..or maybe just "Conspycuous." They can be led by "Conspyfucious." Lol
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-05-01 08:49:10 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
A good spy is the one you never hear about.



A good spy is the one you never hear about.

A great spy is the one who can troll about all the intel he has and still never get caught.

Twitter - @eveskunk

Testerxnot Sheepherder
Get Isk or Die Mining
#44 - 2012-05-01 08:58:58 UTC
Spymaster Bates wrote:
Killer Gandry wrote:
A good spy is the one you never hear about.



A good spy is the one you never hear about.

A great spy is the one who can troll about all the intel he has and still never get caught.



Not sure if troll or just horribly delusional...
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-05-01 09:08:26 UTC
My name is Spymaster Bates.

Is this a good reply to the above question?

P

Twitter - @eveskunk

Reikazenzero
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-05-01 10:46:56 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
http://www.eveskunk.com/?messageID=312430205

lol


There are many thing about cascade I miss , archie angry alliance mails are one of them lolol.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#47 - 2012-05-01 11:33:05 UTC
Spymaster Bates wrote:
Also, since this is a discussion do you think spying has made Eve better or worse as a game?


I would have to go with more interesting for those playing the metagame, but less inclusive for anyone else.

Back in the days of SFCII, I was one of the Triumvirate of the Romulan SPQR. We Romulans not only RP'd the roll, but we had spies everywhere. For many campaigns we knew the enemy battle plans before their troops did. For some, we helped draft the plans.
After a time, the player community came together and told us that what we were doing was making it impossible for any team to trust new players, and generally keeping a game community that was too small from growing. After that we kept up the RP aspect of it, but dropped all of our spying activities and actively worked to root out spying. It didn’t feel like being Romulan anymore, but the community was better for it and so was the game.

The problem with spying is that it's a metagame. Any player can create any number of characters and can play them all. There's no way to be certain that the player on the other side of the avatar is who he says he is and that he'll have your back when you need him, rather than sticking a knife in it when the time is right. So long as that's the case (and I don't see it changing) EVE will remain a contradiction. There is no one you can actually trust with anything, while the greatest accomplishments can only be achieved by working together.
I’d love to see metagame of spying disappear, but until the day comes when you can KNOW that the avatar is who he says he is, spys could be anywhere. If they could be anywhere, people will assume that they are everywhere, and will plant spys of their own; insuring that spys will always be everywhere.
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-05-01 12:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Spymaster Bates
VaMei wrote:
Spymaster Bates wrote:
Also, since this is a discussion do you think spying has made Eve better or worse as a game?


I would have to go with more interesting for those playing the metagame, but less inclusive for anyone else.

Back in the days of SFCII, I was one of the Triumvirate of the Romulan SPQR. We Romulans not only RP'd the roll, but we had spies everywhere. For many campaigns we knew the enemy battle plans before their troops did. For some, we helped draft the plans.
After a time, the player community came together and told us that what we were doing was making it impossible for any team to trust new players, and generally keeping a game community that was too small from growing. After that we kept up the RP aspect of it, but dropped all of our spying activities and actively worked to root out spying. It didn’t feel like being Romulan anymore, but the community was better for it and so was the game.

The problem with spying is that it's a metagame. Any player can create any number of characters and can play them all. There's no way to be certain that the player on the other side of the avatar is who he says he is and that he'll have your back when you need him, rather than sticking a knife in it when the time is right. So long as that's the case (and I don't see it changing) EVE will remain a contradiction. There is no one you can actually trust with anything, while the greatest accomplishments can only be achieved by working together.
I’d love to see metagame of spying disappear, but until the day comes when you can KNOW that the avatar is who he says he is, spys could be anywhere. If they could be anywhere, people will assume that they are everywhere, and will plant spys of their own; insuring that spys will always be everywhere.


I can understand the attempt to keep a small group of roleplayers having issues when the metagame levels become unbearable.

I personally found over the years that my interests moved from one aspect of eve to another. I've roleplayed, mined, scammed, missioned, lived in wormhole space, and now spied. Did you not find that being a spy made you laugh like an insane person when someone was falling for your trap?

While leading the fleet is important. Who is more powerful? The spy whispering in the FC's ear or the faceman calling the primaries?

You see spying as a problem. We can agree to disagee but, I see it as another way that proves skill points and numbers don't always mean an easy victory.

I usually use 'Eve Is Real' as a punchline, but it is true spies aren't just going to go away in real warfare nor are they going away in EvE.

But, I do remember my innocent roleplayer days well. Thank you for the opinion.

Twitter - @eveskunk

Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-05-01 12:18:24 UTC
Quote:
eve skunk
From:Morphiana
Date:2012-04-30 19:18:00
Eve Skunk I love you!
All your shiz belong to us :)
http://www.eveskunk.com/?allianceID=347718026
Obviously alliance mails are WHOLEly compromised.
You'll get CTA and other important information through a secondary source.
Regards,
Morph


U mad BREW?

Twitter - @eveskunk

VaMei
Meafi Corp
#50 - 2012-05-01 12:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
Spymaster Bates wrote:
but it is true spies aren't just going to go away in ... EvE.

That's why I tell friends that come to EVE that "If you can't punch him in the face IRL, then you can't trust him in EVE."
There are about half a dozen EVE players I trust not to screw me over for a dime, because I trust them to not screw me over IRL. Everyone else is suspect, and frankly that's why I'm pretty much a lone wolf in an MMO.
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-05-01 12:28:30 UTC
VaMei wrote:
Spymaster Bates wrote:
but it is true spies aren't just going to go away in ... going away in EvE.

That's why I tell friends that come to EVE that "If you can't punch him in the face IRL, then you can't trust him in EVE."
There are about half a dozen EVE players I trust not to screw me over for a dime, because I trust them to not screw me over IRL. Everyone else is suspect, and frankly that's why I'm pretty much a lone wolf in an MMO.


Good logic but I've seen that logic backfire in terrible ways. Never forget about the sociopaths, lucky those type of spies are few are far between. They make even me take a step back and go "you know this is a game right?"

Twitter - @eveskunk

TWHC Assistant
#52 - 2012-05-01 12:44:23 UTC
How much ISKs does one make as a spy?
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-05-01 13:06:22 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
How much ISKs does one make as a spy?


Depending on the level of intel you have access to it varies. We have an internal ranking system we use to determine your paygrade. Things to take into consideration are thing like ...



  • Importance of the Alliance
  • Your position in the Alliance (Grunt to Director)
  • Active Intel Relaying (Comms, Director Meetings, Alliance Meetings, FC channels, Intel Channels)
  • Passive intel Relaying (AKA The easy stuff.) (Doctrines, Mails, Forums, JB Maps, Alt Lists, Supercap Lists)
  • General Activity


Being a spy should be hard. Passing on the one or two CTA mails doesn't cut it anymore. I think only maybe a handful of people in EvE are effective spies. Most are terrible and wash out in the first couple months.

Twitter - @eveskunk

TWHC Assistant
#54 - 2012-05-01 13:10:01 UTC
Spymaster Bates wrote:
TWHC Assistant wrote:
How much ISKs does one make as a spy?


Depending on the level of intel you have access to it varies. We have an internal ranking system we use to determine your paygrade. Things to take into consideration are thing like ...



  • Importance of the Alliance
  • Your position in the Alliance (Grunt to Director)
  • Active Intel Relaying (Comms, Director Meetings, Alliance Meetings, FC channels, Intel Channels)
  • Passive intel Relaying (AKA The easy stuff.) (Doctrines, Mails, Forums, JB Maps, Alt Lists, Supercap Lists)
  • General Activity


Being a spy should be hard. Passing on the one or two CTA mails doesn't cut it anymore. I think only maybe a handful of people in EvE are effective spies. Most are terrible and wash out in the first couple months.

What if I am the director of an alliance and I pass you a copy of all my mails. How much would this be worth to you?
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-05-01 13:18:44 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Spymaster Bates wrote:
TWHC Assistant wrote:
How much ISKs does one make as a spy?


Depending on the level of intel you have access to it varies. We have an internal ranking system we use to determine your paygrade. Things to take into consideration are thing like ...



  • Importance of the Alliance
  • Your position in the Alliance (Grunt to Director)
  • Active Intel Relaying (Comms, Director Meetings, Alliance Meetings, FC channels, Intel Channels)
  • Passive intel Relaying (AKA The easy stuff.) (Doctrines, Mails, Forums, JB Maps, Alt Lists, Supercap Lists)
  • General Activity


Being a spy should be hard. Passing on the one or two CTA mails doesn't cut it anymore. I think only maybe a handful of people in EvE are effective spies. Most are terrible and wash out in the first couple months.

What if I am the director of an alliance and I pass you a copy of all my mails. How much would this be worth to you?


Pretty much nothing unless it is super secret and then you'd be mailing me in private rather than posting it on a forum.

Twitter - @eveskunk

TWHC Assistant
#56 - 2012-05-01 13:20:53 UTC
Spymaster Bates wrote:
Pretty much nothing unless it is super secret and then you'd be mailing me in private rather than posting it on a forum.

I would not post it on the forums! I am looking for an easy income source. It is all super secret. I can give it to you in writting if you like. Only you and me will know about it.
Vyl Vit
#57 - 2012-05-01 14:17:44 UTC
Masamune Dekoro wrote:
Who would recruit someone named Spymaster Bates

"I'm a spy," isn't something successful spies would be found saying...or they'd be found?
Let's toss the OP onto the dungheap of digital history. "I found all the corps run by 12-year-olds
and copy/pasted their corp mail. Ain't I a hoot?" James Bond trembles at your approach.
Really.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Armoured C
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-05-01 14:21:04 UTC
is anything actually happening in this thread ??
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-05-01 14:41:12 UTC
Armoured C wrote:
is anything actually happening in this thread ??


Disband alliance button and such.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-05-01 14:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
VaMei wrote:
The problem with spying is that it's a metagame. Any player can create any number of characters and can play them all. There's no way to be certain that the player on the other side of the avatar is who he says he is and that he'll have your back when you need him, rather than sticking a knife in it when the time is right. So long as that's the case (and I don't see it changing) EVE will remain a contradiction. There is no one you can actually trust with anything, while the greatest accomplishments can only be achieved by working together.

trust is not an absolute, it comes in degrees.

it is natural for any large alliance to be infiltrated at the grunt level - but usually a grunt shouldn't be able to cause any critical damage. A random grunt shouldn't be trusted with anything important but he doesn't require that trust to be a productive member of your corp/alliance either.
No point creating paranoia at this level, in doubt just release the grunt-level information to the public yourself (e.g. TEST Alliance News).

At higher levels infiltration becomes much more difficult and your primary worry should be about disgruntled/burnt out long-time members, not about new spies joining you.
The whole "I worked for 2 years to subvert this alliance because they killed my Merlin when I was a newbie" thing sounds cool but doesn't happen.
What actually happens is "That other director (who I have been playing with for 2 years) is an arrogant prick who embarrassed me one time too often in front of my corp members".

Of course you should do the whole due diligence thing with rgds to spy detection (and there is a lot you can do, get yourself a competent IT guy with some creativity) but I generally wouldn't get too stressed out about uncovering hostile spies.
Better spend your resources on getting your own spies in place to level the playing field and watch out for brewing conflicts between your lieutenants.

I can give you ISK without trusting you not to run away with it, I can give you a fleet without trusting you not to whelp it, I can give you information without trusting you not to leak it - that's something you should think about.
Don't let yourself be paralyzed by the thought that you can't trust anyone completely.
"No trust" doesn't translate into inaction, it translates into calculated and conscious risk taking (whereas "trust" means unconscious risk-taking).

.