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An open letter to CCP, the Gallente, and ORE on Mining Ships.

Author
Entous
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-04-30 03:07:27 UTC
For years now, we have been held hostage. Not by the Goonswarm, not by Hulkageddon, and not by gunminers or drone region dwellers. No, we have been held hostage by none other than ORE. This is my call to wake you up, you poor miner, Stockholm syndrome sufferer. As you sit in your Hulk, or your Covetor, I ask you, Why do you? We have been conditioned now to the point that we simply ask for ships to be buffed or nerfed, somehow contented to our lot we have thrown in with this wretched organization. I call to you all, open your eyes before this cannot be righted. I too have been blind these years, and only a recent reading of a manifesto opened them by accident.

ORE has been calling our shots for far too long. Think of this from the perspective of a warrior, would they fly a ship that attacks once every three minutes, and cannot defend itself outside of drones? The most you could do in such a ship is rat in high security space. And, is that not what we are being forced to do? Instead of innovating, the Ore company has pushed us to be careless targets. Even the most amazingly fit Hulk cannot take but a few decently fit destroyers, or a decently piloted tier three battle-cruiser. Instead of faster cycle times, we are committed to staying still for three minutes, or five in the case of ice. The Mackinaw is the pinnacle of this horrid design, with miners being forced to stay the course for upwards of 8 minutes for the least skilled of us, and to end early simply wastes all of that time. I call on you, our mother factions, to right this! Innovate! I know my own mother faction, the Gallente pride ourselves on freedom, and we must show them the chains that have been put on us by ORE! Much like the Blockade Runner was born, so must a new breed of ship.

Am I calling for mining battle ships, or mining cloaking ships? Of course not. One only need apply the logic of warfare. Let me make this clear with an example. We Gallente excel at one thing above all else. Drones. Even the rogue drones can be traced somewhat back to ill-thought-out experiments by us. We could easily embrace that aspect, creating a mining ship built for drone usage. We have shown in the past we Gallente can take ORE designs and make them truly powerful, one only need a bit of intelligence to restructure the current Myrmidon hull into a true drone mining platform. All mother factions must get into this game, as more weight will fall on us to keep the empire running.

One only needs look as far as the Primae to see that ORE cares not for us miners. They have the ability to design ships with low signature radius, decent cargo room, yet their ‘answer’ for our mining needs is the Orca, which itself is hard to defend a true onslaught. Perhaps just as worse, the longer cycle on Strip Miners force us to become indistinguishable from the bots plaguing us.

The older miners among us tell our younger crowd one single survival tip. Stay aligned. If there is any real threat, stay aligned. We are not warriors, yet we are being forced to become them as we continue to submit to the almighty ORE and fly ships that cannot maneuver or escape. This is the time all miners should stand up, and declare for once the gankers and greifers are unfortunately right in their cause, but for a different reason. The Hulk and Mackinaw should die with hulkageddon. We need real mining ships, now more than ever, and now is the time that it would be most beneficial for our factions to get with us on that.
Teh Frog
Exotic Connections
#2 - 2012-04-30 03:48:09 UTC
Wat
xOm3gAx
Stain of Mind
#3 - 2012-04-30 04:07:25 UTC
Teh Frog wrote:
Wat


tl; dr

He wants a hulk that uses mining drones like their strip miners. Or strippers. It was a tad confusing.
Entous
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-04-30 05:02:50 UTC
If it doesn't make sense, you aren't really a miner most likely.

Tell me, would you enjoy it if the only pvp ships available to you were a drake or nyx, and that's it?

Miners have no real ships to set goals for. Instead, we are forced to fly paper thin mining barges that can be destroyed by a single catalyst, and the only response is to 'fit it for tank'. That's a Brilliant idea! In fact, why don't I also fit a Nyx or Leviathin for mining?!

The fact that there are no racial mining ships that highlight each of the races' natural strengths has always seemed more of an oversight, with asteroid minerals now coming predominantly from miners perhaps it's time we get ships designed to do what we need? I don't want to tank the ganker, I want to get away from the ganker. Fitting for tanking just means you are locked down until more get there.

Give us ships EVE miners would use, not ships that EVE-bots would use.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#5 - 2012-04-30 05:07:56 UTC
Entous wrote:


ORE has been calling our shots for far too long. Think of this from the perspective of a warrior, would they fly a ship that attacks once every three minutes, and cannot defend itself outside of drones? The most you could do in such a ship is rat in high security space.


Your post is wrong on so many levels, but I'll just address this one. The Ore ships are optimum for 0.0 space, not high sec. They are much safer in 0.0 than highsec. If you want to get away from the ganker who hides amongst the crowds of neutrals in high sec, join a 0.0 corp. With the new changes, lots of them are looking for miners.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Entous
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-04-30 05:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Entous
FT Diomedes wrote:

Your post is wrong on so many levels, but I'll just address this one. The Ore ships are optimum for 0.0 space, not high sec. They are much safer in 0.0 than highsec. If you want to get away from the ganker who hides amongst the crowds of neutrals in high sec, join a 0.0 corp. With the new changes, lots of them are looking for miners.


Really? When a mining operation is attacked, what are the first ships popped? The defenders?

Of course not. Especially in 0.0, an attacker could probably take out 2-3 hulks and warp out before hitting red armor. Null-sec especially is in need a much more mobile mining platform. The only reason this overly stationary platform works for null is they are usually alts being watched by a BS main that is ratting the belt.

As to joining a 0.0 corp, what's the point? I mean, really? They are no more use to me than Concord is. If someone wants to kill you, even in your 'friendly' 0.0 space, there is nothing you can do about it. You lose a 400m+ ship and 75m-500m of implants before your guard even lands the first blow on the attacker.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-04-30 06:06:52 UTC
They can gate camp and keep the attackers out in the first place, concord protects the attackers until they are at point blank range in the belt.

Null has local, and you can see if there are any non-blues.
Local in high sec is pretty much useless for determining when there is a threatening party in your system
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#8 - 2012-04-30 06:41:49 UTC
Entous wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

Your post is wrong on so many levels, but I'll just address this one. The Ore ships are optimum for 0.0 space, not high sec. They are much safer in 0.0 than highsec. If you want to get away from the ganker who hides amongst the crowds of neutrals in high sec, join a 0.0 corp. With the new changes, lots of them are looking for miners.


Really? When a mining operation is attacked, what are the first ships popped? The defenders?

Of course not. Especially in 0.0, an attacker could probably take out 2-3 hulks and warp out before hitting red armor. Null-sec especially is in need a much more mobile mining platform. The only reason this overly stationary platform works for null is they are usually alts being watched by a BS main that is ratting the belt.

As to joining a 0.0 corp, what's the point? I mean, really? They are no more use to me than Concord is. If someone wants to kill you, even in your 'friendly' 0.0 space, there is nothing you can do about it. You lose a 400m+ ship and 75m-500m of implants before your guard even lands the first blow on the attacker.


Sounds to me like someone's never been to 0.0 and is blithering on about the experiences he had thinking about maybe considering sometime moving temporarily to 0.0 just to try it out.

When a mining operation in 0.0 is attacked, the Hulks are landing in their safe POS cause they were watching local.

In 0.0, an attacker could possibly take out the few Hulks too stupid to warp off, but they'd be better served trying to kill the PvP ships that you imagine are protecting the ever-important mining Op, since those ships will have them pointed (so the attacker can't run).

If someone wants to kill you in friendly space and they're not blue, there's no reason you shouldn't be landing on your POS while they're landing on the grid you used to be on.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Vala Kyrija
LUX Uls Xystus
LUX aRe us
#9 - 2012-04-30 06:43:48 UTC
I'd vote for mining sentry drones.
fgft Athonille
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-04-30 07:45:06 UTC
in light of argubly the best boost to mining since the hulk all you do is cry

this isnt the game for you. harden the fuk up or gtfo
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#11 - 2012-04-30 08:35:55 UTC
ADDRESS UNKNOWN

RETURN MAIL TO SENDER
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-30 08:41:18 UTC
Great idea,

adding diversity to the mining profession would cause more miners. +1

Let's relook at the original concept of industrials as well: Mobile construction facilities, not glorified cargoholds.

As as avid PvPer I support the mining and industrial community. The more industrialists and miners there are... the more supply of goods, and our PvP costs decrease.... WIN!!!

-DT
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#13 - 2012-04-30 09:58:45 UTC
Entous wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

Your post is wrong on so many levels, but I'll just address this one. The Ore ships are optimum for 0.0 space, not high sec. They are much safer in 0.0 than highsec. If you want to get away from the ganker who hides amongst the crowds of neutrals in high sec, join a 0.0 corp. With the new changes, lots of them are looking for miners.


Really? When a mining operation is attacked, what are the first ships popped? The defenders?

Of course not. Especially in 0.0, an attacker could probably take out 2-3 hulks and warp out before hitting red armor. Null-sec especially is in need a much more mobile mining platform. The only reason this overly stationary platform works for null is they are usually alts being watched by a BS main that is ratting the belt.

As to joining a 0.0 corp, what's the point? I mean, really? They are no more use to me than Concord is. If someone wants to kill you, even in your 'friendly' 0.0 space, there is nothing you can do about it. You lose a 400m+ ship and 75m-500m of implants before your guard even lands the first blow on the attacker.

But if there's defenders, wouldn't they have scrams?

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.

Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#14 - 2012-04-30 10:26:35 UTC
Oh god, mine in Nullsec/Tank your Hulk/Leave, which ever one is easiest for you.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-04-30 11:11:40 UTC
What fun would a mining ship with a tank or even worse guns be? It's not any fun trying to kill something that might have a chance to fight back or escape. That just goes against the "gank" style of most PVP in Eve. CCP looks at PVE players as lambs for the PVP players. It's all about subscription numbers and there is just something about killing something that can't fight back that appeals to human nature. Maybe it's just stress relief after getting smacked around in real life. It's better than them doing it in real life! The only thing you can do is always take precautions and know you will lose ships.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#16 - 2012-04-30 13:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Entous wrote:
Am I calling for mining battle ships, or mining cloaking ships?


Why not?

No, seriously, why not?

Right now you've got two options for high-risk mining:

1) Head out in a paper mache mining barge and pray no one spots you, because spotted = dead. And even the Hulk, with a whopping five medium drones is barely enough protection to deal with even 0.4 rats, and that's assuming you've completely maxed your drone & tanking skills before heading out. Cthulhu help you if an actual player ship shows up.

2) Kit out a full fledged dreadnaught for PvP action, try to sneak some mining drones into your bay, and take home pissant little 200-300m3 loads while hoping no one figures out what your doing.

Hence, the only ships fit for mining can't fend off a school of angry hamsters with any hope of survival, and the ships that can actually survive (i.e. warships) are worthless as miners.

We need a hybrid, and we need it badly.

Now I'm not talking about a mining barge with sixteen turrets or Titan class shields. That's just going too far. But honestly, would it kill CCP to make a new class of mining barge that had, say, even just two or three actual weapon mounts? I mean, we're only talking Medium turrets, here.

For example, and this is just an example, imagine a T2 "Hazard Miner" design as an alternative to the Hulk:
Covetor frame (like the Hulk), same 4000m3 cargo (less than the Hulk), slightly higher shield/armor/resist than the Hulk (so it can actually tank a little better), two strip miner mounts (less than the Hulk), between two to four Medium turret mounts (about dang time!), expand drone capacity to 250m3 and 125 bandwidth (can now use Heavy Drones for protection, and more of them), and throw in the transport ship +2 warp bonus (flee!) to remind people, oh yeah, it's still not a warship, don't try to fly it like one. After all, it's not like it's getting weapon bonuses - only the usual mining and resists for skill levels. An actual warship with the exact same weapons is still going to do more damage, obviously.

Such a design would be inferior to Hulk in terms of raw mining potential - in fact, it's actual mining potential would be no more than that of the Covetor that it's made from. However, in terms of combat survivability it would obviously be superior to the Hulk. That combat power, of course, still does not compare to a well fitted battlecruiser or anything, but would at least be enough to let it handle rats better and maybe buy much needed time to escape from gankers. It would still be at risk, but it wouldn't be helpeless - which is more than could be said of all current mining barges.

Best of all, the ganker crowd could stop complaining about "carebear whining" because there would be a lot less "carebear whining" if they could actually shoot back for a change. Though I suspect that would simply get replaced with an even greater amount of "ganker whining" because, oh yeah, their victims could actually shoot back for a change. Blink


Death Toll007 wrote:
Great idea,

adding diversity to the mining profession would cause more miners. +1

Let's relook at the original concept of industrials as well: Mobile construction facilities, not glorified cargoholds.

As as avid PvPer I support the mining and industrial community. The more industrialists and miners there are... the more supply of goods, and our PvP costs decrease.... WIN!!!

-DT


And I give props to you for being a PvPer with a brain. It's amazing how many people can't figure out such a simple concept. I salute thee! Big smile

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Kathina Tryndal
The Mitre Corporation
#17 - 2012-04-30 13:29:58 UTC
IMO, the Tech III cruisers have shown the way things should go - modular mining/industrial ships, too, anyone?
Steveir
Hagukure
#18 - 2012-04-30 15:25:57 UTC
I like the idea of a mining drone ship +1 (role specific, I already have a BS fitted for mining).

Nasty armour tank with the option of a flight of big attack drones sounds like fun.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#19 - 2012-04-30 19:54:15 UTC
Kathina Tryndal wrote:
IMO, the Tech III cruisers have shown the way things should go - modular mining/industrial ships, too, anyone?


That would be a fun idea.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#20 - 2012-04-30 23:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Really? You want to engage in non-consensual PvP in a mining ship? I don't care if the damn thing is a mining Titan. It's a dead ship if someone wants to engage it. A couple of guns mounted on your mining ship are absolutely useless. Let's assume this hypothetical "hybrid" ship actually exists... and is actually good at everything (which it would have to be not to be absolutely useless).

Ore Tech III ship:

Highs - 6, 3 turrets, 3 missiles
Mids - 8
Lows - 6

Dronebay - 50m3, 50 bandwidth

For the sake of form, I am making it use missiles. Why? Because if I didn't, the most common fitting would be 6x Modulated Strip Miner IIs.

Electronics Subsystem:
6% better yield for strip miners per level

Defensive Subsystem Bonus:
10% Bonus to shield resistances per level

Engineering Subsystem Bonus:
10% Bonus to cap recharge per level

Offensive Subsystem bonus:
5% missile ROF per level

Propulsion Subsystem bonus:
5% increased agility per level

Role Bonus - 100% bonus to Heavy Missile Damage, 50% bonus to missile velocity

Standard fitting:

3x Modulated Strip Miner II
3x HML II

1x EM Hardener II
1x Invuln II
1x Warp Disruptor II
2x LSE II
1x 10mn Microwarpdrive
1x Stasis Webifier II
1x Survey Scanner II

1x Damage Control Unit II
2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
3x Ballistic Control Unit II

3x Medium Core Defense Field Extender

And in 0.0, it still dies to the first small gang that roles into its space and finds it alone in a belt. And a handful of Tornados still blow it up in a highsec belt.

In short, the OP and his alt friends don't know anything about PvP and are lacking in common sense. They are, however, incredibly good trolls.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

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