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Datacore speculation: do or dont?

Author
Mya ElleTerego
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-04-29 04:19:10 UTC
Just curious, the information out about the future changes is pretty vague. It does seem like its started already, and i am tempted to make a decent stake in it. What do you guys think? Also what about stuff like racial datacores ie starship engineering? Will that have a more dramatic effect due to the racial FW teams, than say mechanical engineering. Really curious what you pro's think.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2 - 2012-04-29 04:31:07 UTC
The facts we have so far: CCP Soundwave doesn't like passive income. CCP Soundwave wants to get rid of the passive income stream of data cores: in the past he has expressed an interest in moving data cores to exploration or the FW militia LP stores. CCP Soundwave has also expressed an interest in adding a purchase cost other than RP to data cores. Various interpretations of his words include "he only wants to move racial data cores to LP stores" or "only wants to move racial starship engineering to LP stores".

The bottom line is that whatever the ISK purchase price of data cores becomes is the value that data cores will gravitate towards — mostly due to brain-dead people in the militias finding ways to convert their LP to ISK with the least amount of foot work. They won't care that their conversion rate is 1ISK/LP, they just care that they're getting something for their LP.

If the ISK purchase cost of LP-store-datacores is lower than the ISK purchase cost of R&D agent data cores, kiss the market goodbye. If the rumours prove to be true and only the racial starship engineering data cores are moved to LP stores, everything will remain as it currently is. If, in addition, there are ISK purchase prices associated with R&D agent data cores, expect the prices of data cores to balloon by as much as that ISK purchase amount.

In the end there is not enough detail (concrete or rumour) available to make any decisions. I have collected all of my data cores, and they'll be available on the market once we have some better idea about what direction the market will be heading.

In the meantime, take a look at the other ideas that CCP Soundwave has come up with and see how they panned out. How secure do you feel in believing that CCP Soundwave's ideas for data cores will pan out any differently?
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-29 07:59:34 UTC
It's a high risk to speculate in datacores in my opinion. CCP could make them cheap in the FW LP stores or expensive or not do anything at all. Personally I'm going to keep my stockpile of datacores until I read the exact changes.
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#4 - 2012-04-29 09:35:28 UTC
My hunch has pretty much been that they'll end up cheaper (after any supply shocks etc).

Cheaper or dearer the profitability of T2 invention remains unchanged.... but....

Dearer datacores would increase profitability of T2 BPOs and nobody wants the increase in mad frothy-mouthed sqwarking that would eminate from the facts-inconvenient-and-unnecessary crowd.
Ayn Randy
Home For Pugs
#5 - 2012-04-29 09:43:18 UTC
Ive already made my billions off them :)
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#6 - 2012-04-29 22:29:56 UTC
I'm not stocking up, but I'm not cashing out either. Buying on a JIT-basis as I need them.

I really think it's a case of CCP not understanding the datacore market. Is it passive income? Technically yes. But it's not an ISK faucet and the items are only worth what other players will pay for them, which has gotten less and less over the years. So now you have to spend 2-6 weeks grinding up standings, plus 50M ISK in skill books, only to end up with an income source that pays out somewhere around 1.8 datacores/day (if you do not run missions). That works out to a measly 8-15M ISK/mo per agent (30-60 days to earn back your 50M ISK).

Frankly, if CCP has common sense, they won't touch the passive RP/day or the RP cost of datacores at all. That gives the market a baseline supply to feed the growing subscriber base.

Instead they should simply boost supply:

1) Increase the RP reward that you get from doing the daily R&D mission. Boost that payout by 3x-5x and the people who are willing to do the daily missions will end up with the bulk of the reward. It keeps the Research Project Management skill as a viable skill, plus you need the datacore skills in order to talk to the agent.

2) Add the racial engineering datacores to the FW corps LP stores. Maybe you can only buy them if you train the datacore skill to some level. Or set a minimum standing requirement.

3) Add the other datacores to the R&D NPC corp LP stores. If you can currently talk to an R&D agent and get RP in a particular datacore area, then that NPC corp should also sell the datacores of that type. Maybe you can only buy them if you train the datacore skill to some level. Maybe set a minimum standing requirement, or introduce a discount of up to 20% as your standing with the corp gets closer to +10.

Boosting supply means that passive-only earners will end up with less ISK/month, without completely pulling the rug out from under them in an abrupt fashion. You tick off fewer people if you slowly nerf passive R&D farming as an income source then if you simply remove it right off the bat.
Andy DelGardo
#7 - 2012-04-30 00:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy DelGardo
My gut tells me that the datacore prices will go up by a factor of 2-3. The logic is simple, assuming datacore demand will be the same, but SP points spend on other items will direct compete with datacore prices. I also assume that 50%+ of all datacores come from passive special research toons/accounts, which all will be gone if they are indeed moved datacores to the SP store. So i expect a massive drop on the availability, since datacore toons are really common atm.

ofc all this is highly speculative :)
Smodab Ongalot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-04-30 13:05:16 UTC
If the price of the datacore isn't already inflated by speculation, then it's probably a good bet to buy a few.

From what I can tell, all rumors/facts/dev blogs seem to point to increased datacore prices, assuming the invention requirements stay the same. This is has been covered in previous posts in this thread.

On top of this, CCP Soundwave outright said at fanfest "you better cash in your RP before may", so the market is getting flooded by people cashing out.

The racial ship datacores have already been speculated up enough that I'm not buying them. But, the racial engineering cores are not yet touched, so I'm buying those. Some of them are actually selling at the lowest prices I can seem to find on record.

TL;DR
People are cashing out, CCP says they will cost more later. Probably a decent speculation buy if the price is not already inflated.
Mya ElleTerego
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-05-01 01:32:31 UTC
Thanks for your guys input. Very informative.
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#10 - 2012-05-01 03:06:57 UTC
I'm glad I caught this thread and the warning .


I'm going around collecting data cores from around 7 or 8 alts

THIS IS NOT PASSIVE INCOME

i've spent hours so far with two clients going and its taken some of my attention away from other things like cooking etc. probably above 30% of my attention.. more like 60% as i had to review maps etc.

I'm sure it will have taken 6 to 10 hours of attention when all is said and done and its sitting safely in a trade hub on one chraracter.

Pehaps it is high ISK per hour, but even collecting 6 months worth does start to work to something.

Shipping it involves some danger or caution.. can't autopilot.... and I had to contract some between alts as not all went around with transport ships.

Then selling it without crashing the markets will take some attention in the months ahead

Maybe i'll have 1 billionor so isk to show for those hours but its not like that is an order of magnitude higher than elite PVE

And its probably a loser compared to taking the same number of hours to reiniviorate a past trading distribution network.

IF it takes time to realize a profit, its not passive.

.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#11 - 2012-05-01 08:49:45 UTC
As some context, I have all three characters on all my accounts trained to farm data cores. The effort involved in collecting the data cores alone ensures that this is not a "passive" income stream. Without the work of wandering around collecting the cores, I wouldn't have them, and thus wouldn't have any income derived from cores.

For each character, I have 5 or 6 agents to talk to. The typical autopilot route to talk to these agents is about 40 jumps long, taking me from one end of New Eden to the other. Thus I'm manually piloting for about 50 minutes. On top of this is the actual interaction with the agent which is relatively minor (start conversation -> buy data cores -> click OK, you're done). But then there's the actual shipping of data cores to a market hub. Nobody pays decent prices in Kador, Tash Murkon or similar arse-end-of-the-universe regions.

So the trip is either done in an Orca or a blockade runner, at-keyboard all the way. There's no sense hauling a few tens of millions of ISK around the cluster in a Mammoth. At the end of this, I'll have about 60-80M ISK worth of data cores. This income compares favourably with L4 missions or hisec grav site mining in terms of ISK/hr. Sure, I can increase the ISK/hr ratio by only collecting the data cores once every three months or so: at the cost of the data cores I'm collecting being out of fashion. Part of the process of making ISK from data cores is listing them on the market and ensuring I get the highest price I can. If I don't, that potential 80M ISK worth of data cores a month becomes more like 50M ISK as my market gets destroyed by FOTM-farmers. Maximising income from data cores is a long-term project, involving another 10-20 minutes a day of reviewing market orders (for which you must be in the appropriate region).

Anyone who thinks data cores are actually passive income has rocks in their head. It's no more passive than running L4s in a Tengu (which is mind numbingly boring compared to mining).
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#12 - 2012-05-01 09:11:37 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


Anyone who thinks data cores are actually passive income has rocks in their head. It's no more passive than running L4s in a Tengu (which is mind numbingly boring compared to mining).


True, if you look at time spent jumping to all agents.

I had 6 chars with 5 L4 agents each (some with 1 L3 agent in the same system as a L4 agent).

In the end i believe i maxed out my efficiency grinding standings. Maxed out PVE char in a Loki grinding L3's in fleet with the object char, and with that char running courier missions simultaniously. Cherry picking Cosmos missions for huge standing increases as well. I believe for my last char it took about two days (8 - 12 hours).

I never ever picked up the cores though :) For T2 production/invention you need to account for the value of the cores anyway so i had buy orders up at all times. I think i have about 500.000 RP on this char alone Lol
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#13 - 2012-05-01 15:13:14 UTC
Not that I think the Datacore system was perfect.... reallly rarely is there a pefect aspect of any game that doesn't deserver iterating on, but it did have some interesting game play involve while GETTING started.

The LURE of passive income created an incentive to engage with NPCs , to research (as a player) their various locations and research rates, to spend hours with 3rd party programs to "analyze" income and to maybe get a toe into the production stream in a limited way for people who didn't want to make the leap to full manufaturing.

It requried the building of standing on many alts, and perhaps interaction with the criminal tags market and those specialized agents...a chance to learn a few different back corners of the universe ... to understand player activity there perhaps and to learn to trade something else.


NO QQ. ... the bottom line was even if it didn't pay terribly hugely compared to my other trading in mutiple billions a month per character with very limited logins to those characters, I DID have Fun... as in was interested in setting and achieving the goal of getting the "income stream" into place.... in the end we play the games for fun and basically anything that holds interest qualifies unless you're a real idiot and do things you don't enjoy.

Without the Lure of making isk though, the whole thing would not have been interesting, and hence I wouldn't have been engaged in those countless hours of getting the characters into place to do datacore research.

So, while I can certainly see other systems that might be "better', there are tons of things in the game to make better or worse and I suspect that what we'll get will be more "differrent" than better, and perhaps remove a key link to NPCs on a long term basis.

.

Andy DelGardo
#14 - 2012-05-02 10:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy DelGardo
From a game-play perspective i think any "complex" system that only has a few player interaction's per day/month is bad game-design. Some are needed for "immersion", but u should try create a more interactive, engaging system instead. So the "old" datacore/agent system was not very rewarding in regards to actual "gameplay" and interaction.

I also think any system that leads a solid player base % to simply create alts only for this specific system is bad gamedesign.

bye Andy
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#15 - 2012-05-03 09:52:30 UTC
We have a little more info, though still no real indication of whether it'll result in up or down price through some Soundwave posting yesterday:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101697&p=5

Short version, all datacores not just racial starship ones, small isk fee + slower rate on research agent gathered cores and dynamic pricing of cores from FW LP stores.

Also "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec." - which either means move part of the process (ie. datacores) toward low/zero in much the same way that T3 production has a WH factor or means the sky is falling and you'll never be able to click manufacture on a T2 print unless you're waist deep in reds being bombarded by an enemy titan fleet - dependent upon your tin foil stockpiles.
Celi Annor
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-05-03 10:16:51 UTC
Changes on Sisi, I'm in datacores heavily Big smile
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#17 - 2012-05-03 10:43:45 UTC
ok. drama time.

If CCP wants to move T2 production to lo. Than likely this will mean you can't anchor a component array in hi anymore and can't manufacture the components in NPC lines as well. Logically this will result in one man and small corps will engage in less T2 production as they won't be able to defend their POSses. Or in any case, it will result in longer logistical lines. Either will increase the price of T2 products significantly. Say goodbye to your plants comfortably located close to market hubs.

Obvious datacore price increase is obvious. Let's say that 90% of current datacore supply comes from agents. Supply would be less in any case, but an added price tag will result in less players doing the grind as the gains are small as it is, decreasing supply even more.
Unless ofcourse FW will be the thing (and we all know this won't happen). Invention costs will increase as well, increasing T2 even more).
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-05-03 11:00:55 UTC
Tekota wrote:
We have a little more info, though still no real indication of whether it'll result in up or down price through some Soundwave posting yesterday:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101697&p=5

Short version, all datacores not just racial starship ones, small isk fee + slower rate on research agent gathered cores and dynamic pricing of cores from FW LP stores.

Also "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec." - which either means move part of the process (ie. datacores) toward low/zero in much the same way that T3 production has a WH factor or means the sky is falling and you'll never be able to click manufacture on a T2 print unless you're waist deep in reds being bombarded by an enemy titan fleet - dependent upon your tin foil stockpiles.


/me examines tinfoil stockpiles Big smile
Makos Suti
Genius Bt.
#19 - 2012-05-03 16:59:15 UTC
"Datacores are 1000LP + 1m isk for 5

Amarr LP Store has

Amarrian Starship Engineering, Graviton Physics, Lazor Phyics, Nanite Engineering, High Energy Phyics

Also I got 25K lp from a Major solo. Ihub grade status unknown but likely empty.

125K LP + 125m = 625 Datacores.

High Energy Phyics = 298k each x 625 = 186.215m - 125 = 61m profit
Nanite Engineering = 334k each x 625 = 208.75 = 125 = 83m profit.
Amarrian Starship Engineering = 299k x 625 = 186.8 =125 = 61.8m Profit
Lazor Phyics = 224k x 625 = 140m - 125 = 15m Profit
Graviton Physics = 198k x 625 = 123 - 125 = -1.25m loss.

Not sure thats a super good return for your LP. So either no ones gonna use it or Datacores are about to become alot more expensive. "
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#20 - 2012-05-03 17:17:02 UTC
Makos Suti wrote:
Datacores are 1000LP + 1m isk for 5


Depends how the dynamic pricing works out on live I guess but I'm guessing CCP have a target LP-isk conversion rate in mind to balance around and I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that's 1000isk per LP. Which would mean 400k datacores. Which would make my post #4 above yet another of my string of dodgy predictions :o)

(Oh and Celi Annor - I see you've been buying up some of my relisted cores which would suggest you're doing just what you said you were doing on the forum - I thought the accepted forum protocol was to post "omg sell!" before buying :o)
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