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Pulse vs Auto canon
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Moroccan Tourist
Blood Raider Cleaning Crew
#1 - 2012-04-29 00:50:14 UTC
200m auto 4 VS medium pulse 12 - Ratio : 0.333
Rifter 37 VS Punisher 45 - Ratio : 0.822



425mm AutoCannon 154 PG VS Heavy Pulse lazer 213 - Ratio : 0.72
cane 1350 vs harbinger 1500 - Ratio : 0.9

800mm 2200 vs heavy pulse 2750 - Ratio : 0.8
Phoon 12500 , geddon 16500 - Ratio 0.75

i didnt want to use the mael because it a bad exemple shield vs armor but whatever here it is
mael = baddon = 21000 - ratio :1


Amarr ships have serious problems with their PG comparing them to the minmatars , the ratio is getting better once we get to the BS class .


The harbinger for example can't be fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse and a 1600 plate (PG +5%) , which is stupid .
The cane can fit 6 x 425 and 1 plate and has like 355 pg left .
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2 - 2012-04-29 01:14:32 UTC
Lasers come with good dps, range, instant ammo in exchange for fitting costs and cap usage.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-29 01:45:46 UTC
This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-29 02:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Moroccan Tourist wrote:

The harbinger for example can't be fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse and a 1600 plate (PG +5%) , which is stupid .
The cane can fit 6 x 425 and 1 plate and has like 355 pg left .

The cane can fit 6x425, 1600plate AND 2xNEUT, 2xHAM OR 2xHML (with a few ACRs/Reactor Control Units).
The extra 2 slots is what makes the cane astonishingly good.

2xneut is lolol good with capless weapons and ensures supremacy over harbinger in fights (also great vs frigs).
The Harbinger gets owned by neuts, and struggles with cap to use even ONE neut (the racial EWAR of Amarr!)
Let's not even go into the superior speed of the Cane and ability to choose damage types.
Canes can easily switch to therm or EM ammo vs the Harbinger (while neuting it!) while the Harby can only use EM/Therm, the worst resist types vs the Cane.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Moroccan Tourist
Blood Raider Cleaning Crew
#5 - 2012-04-29 02:59:07 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Lasers come with good dps, range, instant ammo in exchange for fitting costs and cap usage.



fitting costs? you cant actually fit the thing ! the only thing that makes lazes viable is scorch !

Nalha Saldana wrote:
This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.


the armor harbinger get stuck with focused ones that are outclassed in tern of range and dps by the 425s

Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#6 - 2012-04-29 03:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaikka Carel
Those high pg requirements of lasers are the leftover of ancient <2006 times when lasers had one of the highest dps. But since then there were projectiles buff and now a hybrid buff.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#7 - 2012-04-29 07:28:02 UTC
There is also the issue of not being able to fit long range without severely gimping the ship:

Hurricane with 720mm artillery has 200 PG left

It does 254 DPS and 2723 Alpha

Harbinger with Heavy Beam lasers has 140 PG left

It does 277 DPS and 1195 Alpha


The Hurricane can still fit an MWD or a Large Shield extender while the Harbinger cannot.

You never see anyone fly Beam Harbingers in PVP while you can see people fly Arty Hurricanes.

Artillery is better than Beams most of the time due to having slightly less DPS, but Double the Alpha.


In terms of arguing Pulse Laser Vs Autocannons

Autocannons:
+easy to fit
+take no cap
+has very good tracking
+barely affected by range penalty due to its dependence on falloff which projectile ammo does not affect (unless you use hail) +have middle tier damage ammo that can increase their tracking by up to 20%.
+have changeable damage types.
+Biggest Falloff range, shortest optimal
+Barrage
-Autocannon dps is the lowest and is compensated by ship bonuses
-Damage lost in falloff

Pulse Lasers:
+can reload instantly
+frequency crystals are small and last a long time
+longest optimal range, shortest falloff
+Scorch
+Has a slightly higher dps than Autocannons
-take a lot of powergrid to fit
-eats lots of cap that a ship bonus is needed to control it
-worst short range gun tracking
-heavily affected by range penalties on crystals
-Can only do EM/Therm damage

In conclusion Autocannons are a very flexible and versatile weapon system while Lasers are very demanding and inflexible weapon system that does one thing good: applying lots of EM/Therm Damage to its target.

Pulse Lasers have much more glaring weaknesses for a slightly better applied weapon DPS of EM/Therm which is heavily tanked by Armor ships.

Lasers are good for Large ships, but for small and medium ships they have problems and issues.

I believe Pulse Lasers or Heck the entire energy laser weapon systems could use a reduction in Fitting and Capacitor usage for medium and small ships.

Large and XL Lasers are fine, but I think medium and small lasers need a look at.

Medium and small ships suffer from the high fitting demand of lasers.


TLDR: Small and Medium Lasers need a look at in terms of fitting, cap use, tracking, and damage.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-04-29 14:24:37 UTC
Lasers do the least amount of dps per grid even when taking Amarr powergrind into account. Lasers do the least amount of dps for cap even when taking Amarr cap and cap use into account. (In both cases the comparisons were made with faction short range high dmg ammo)

The most extreme example is the person trying to decide the weapons for his Punisher:
AC200T2+rep flt emp:
dps: 27.2
optimal+falloff: 0.75+6
tracking: 0.394
grid/cpu: 3.6/6.75

GatlingT2+imp navy multfreq:
dps: 26
optimal+falloff: 3+0.625
tracking: 0.385
grid/cpu: 5.4/3

In exchange for some cpu, you get a weapon that does more damage, selectable damage type, better range, better tracking, less grid use and no cap use.
Moroccan Tourist
Blood Raider Cleaning Crew
#9 - 2012-04-29 15:09:05 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:


TLDR: Small and Medium Lasers need a look at in terms of fitting, cap use, tracking, and damage.


Cap is fine tbh , just need enough PG to slap a cap booster without gimping the whole fit , tracking is fine also (amarr ships are slow boats) , the PG req for sub battleship turrets is just too much .

A harbinger should at least do this much , instead you need 400 pg to work ,and still you cant fit anything on the free high slot .
a 5% less PG on the heavy turrets would make it good .
Quote:

[Harbinger]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Sutha Moliko
Giza'Msafara
#10 - 2012-04-29 16:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sutha Moliko
Nalha Saldana wrote:
This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.


As Nalha is suggesting :

2 Heat Sink vs 2 Gyro + 1 TE (all lvl 5, no drones)
7 Focused Medium Pulse + Scorch (optimal 20km) = 370 DPS
6 425mm AC + Barrage (at 20km) = 240 DPS
Their DPS are even at 13km
Edit (For the record a Brutix with 7 Heavy Neutron Blaster+ Null, 1 MagStab + 1 TE does 340 DPS at 13km)

A shield Harbi can already fit a full rack of Heavy Pulse Laser II and will do almost 430 DPS at 26km optimal (2 Heat Sink + 1 TE)
A Plated Harbi can fit 2 Stasis Webifier to slow down a leeroy Cane while switching to Multifrequency.
If your Cane can come to 3-5 km, things are differents.

TL;DR
The Harbinger is fine. Smile
Sutha Moliko
Giza'Msafara
#11 - 2012-04-29 17:09:07 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Lasers do the least amount of dps per grid even when taking Amarr powergrind into account. Lasers do the least amount of dps for cap even when taking Amarr cap and cap use into account. (In both cases the comparisons were made with faction short range high dmg ammo)

The most extreme example is the person trying to decide the weapons for his Punisher:
(...)
In exchange for some cpu, you get a weapon that does more damage, selectable damage type, better range, better tracking, less grid use and no cap use.

Agreed
However, lasers (with scorch) have the better optimal range. Use their advantage.
[Punisher, PvP Nano]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I

Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Collision Accelerator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I

A baby version of the Slicer (only 15km optimal but enough to stay out of an overheated AB+web+Scram frigate.

If CCP nerf the Scorch ammo, it might be the end of the Pulse laser. Until then, I still believe that Pulse are competitive compare to both AC and Blaster.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-04-29 18:37:28 UTC
If they nerf scorch, I'm going full Winmatard skills, and will never consider training another race again
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-04-29 19:37:38 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
If they nerf scorch, I'm going full Winmatard skills, and will never consider training another race again


You're going to be mad when you realize that large blasters are fairly dominant in solo/small gang situations.
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-04-29 20:27:50 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Lasers do the least amount of dps per grid even when taking Amarr powergrind into account. Lasers do the least amount of dps for cap even when taking Amarr cap and cap use into account. (In both cases the comparisons were made with faction short range high dmg ammo)

The most extreme example is the person trying to decide the weapons for his Punisher:
AC200T2+rep flt emp:
dps: 27.2
optimal+falloff: 0.75+6
tracking: 0.394
grid/cpu: 3.6/6.75

GatlingT2+imp navy multfreq:
dps: 26
optimal+falloff: 3+0.625
tracking: 0.385
grid/cpu: 5.4/3

In exchange for some cpu, you get a weapon that does more damage, selectable damage type, better range, better tracking, less grid use and no cap use.



Aren't they doing the same damage @2km, with the lasers having .009 worst tracking? Don't the lasers stay even or slightly ahead if you change ammo the farther you go out? Do laser users change ammo ever?

Doesn't it have more to do with the ships themselves and how they are piloted? Don't the systems just fit the style in which the race's ships should be flown?

(real questions, I'm a newb and am making an amarr character after my trade alt has daytrading 4 and accounting 4 trained up)
Broken Thoughts
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-04-29 20:33:05 UTC
to all the trolls saying cane is far superior to harb, then why is it, that you see far more harbingers than hurricanes... oh wait
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-04-29 22:31:27 UTC
bubble trout wrote:

Aren't they doing the same damage @2km, with the lasers having .009 worst tracking? Don't the lasers stay even or slightly ahead if you change ammo the farther you go out? Do laser users change ammo ever?

Doesn't it have more to do with the ships themselves and how they are piloted? Don't the systems just fit the style in which the race's ships should be flown?

(real questions, I'm a newb and am making an amarr character after my trade alt has daytrading 4 and accounting 4 trained up)

1. Beyond 3.3k, the ac's do more dmg. There is al small area where the gatling pulse does more. As the punisher however can't decide range, whatever you're fighting is not going to be fighting you at that range (unless it also has lasers)

2. Small lasers not only have bad tracking, they can't downscale their guns even further to improve that tracking. Every AC will outtrack every laser, always.

3. Ammo changing doens't happen that often. Most frigs bring short range high dmg ammo and T2 long range ammo and that's it. I you would change laser ammo, the resulting graph roughly follows the falloff curve of the short range high damage AC ammo. So the AC user doesn't have to change ammo to keep up.

4. Beyond 3k, the gatling user will switch to scorch, which is the long range T2 ammo. This ammo doesn't outperform the short range AC ammo till about 5k.

5. The AC user can switch to barrage to gain extreme falloff. He won't do that during the fight unless the other ships gets to dictate range and you have to adjust. AC users are usually the ones dictating range however.

6. Good piloting helps (it always does) but that doesn't mean the weapons are balanced. The ship styles of the races increase the differences between the weapon systems so that doesn't help either.

7. While dps seems similar, the AC user can also choose which dmg type to load (he does this before engaging though not everyone bothers with it) This moves everything greatly out of balance vs. Armor tanked ships.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-04-29 23:27:08 UTC
Broken Thoughts wrote:
to all the trolls saying cane is far superior to harb, then why is it, that you see far more harbingers than hurricanes... oh wait


Then why my Cane does more dps @ 28km with lower skills than my Harbinger @ 28km with dmg implant?
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#18 - 2012-04-30 01:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
Sutha Moliko wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.


As Nalha is suggesting :

2 Heat Sink vs 2 Gyro + 1 TE (all lvl 5, no drones)
7 Focused Medium Pulse + Scorch (optimal 20km) = 370 DPS
6 425mm AC + Barrage (at 20km) = 240 DPS
Their DPS are even at 13km
Edit (For the record a Brutix with 7 Heavy Neutron Blaster+ Null, 1 MagStab + 1 TE does 340 DPS at 13km)

A shield Harbi can already fit a full rack of Heavy Pulse Laser II and will do almost 430 DPS at 26km optimal (2 Heat Sink + 1 TE)
A Plated Harbi can fit 2 Stasis Webifier to slow down a leeroy Cane while switching to Multifrequency.
If your Cane can come to 3-5 km, things are differents.

TL;DR
The Harbinger is fine. Smile


Uh-huh, stats say the Harb has comparable stats to a Cane, but real life will tell your otherwise. The shield Harbi will lose to a shield Cane (no cap booster, Cane will neut the living crap out of you), similarly a plated Cane will beat a plated Harbi, because it can have 425s, a medium neut, double web, more dps, so your double web Harby (lol no cap booster) will get a couple shots off before its cap is completely dry and the Cane is shitting all over it, even with a cap booster (small one, or you have to drop to FMP and lose any gun advantage you had), 425 Cane wins point blank (unless the Harb is running Med Drones in which case the Harb will get shat on by the first Rifter that comes along) due to more dps and only 2k EHP difference (offsetted by the fact that the Cane will be shooting @ the Harbs lowest resist).

So nice try, but no, the Harbinger may be 'fine' for Amarr standards, but next to the Winmatar Cane, it's just...bad.

Edit// I was wrong sorry, plated Cane still has enough grid for launchers so if you went with launchers instead of neuts, so no matter what the Harb fits, you'd out dps the Harb on raw stats and still have more utility lol.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#19 - 2012-04-30 06:24:21 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Sutha Moliko wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.


As Nalha is suggesting :

2 Heat Sink vs 2 Gyro + 1 TE (all lvl 5, no drones)
7 Focused Medium Pulse + Scorch (optimal 20km) = 370 DPS
6 425mm AC + Barrage (at 20km) = 240 DPS
Their DPS are even at 13km
Edit (For the record a Brutix with 7 Heavy Neutron Blaster+ Null, 1 MagStab + 1 TE does 340 DPS at 13km)

A shield Harbi can already fit a full rack of Heavy Pulse Laser II and will do almost 430 DPS at 26km optimal (2 Heat Sink + 1 TE)
A Plated Harbi can fit 2 Stasis Webifier to slow down a leeroy Cane while switching to Multifrequency.
If your Cane can come to 3-5 km, things are differents.

TL;DR
The Harbinger is fine. Smile


Uh-huh, stats say the Harb has comparable stats to a Cane, but real life will tell your otherwise. The shield Harbi will lose to a shield Cane (no cap booster, Cane will neut the living crap out of you), similarly a plated Cane will beat a plated Harbi, because it can have 425s, a medium neut, double web, more dps, so your double web Harby (lol no cap booster) will get a couple shots off before its cap is completely dry and the Cane is shitting all over it, even with a cap booster (small one, or you have to drop to FMP and lose any gun advantage you had), 425 Cane wins point blank (unless the Harb is running Med Drones in which case the Harb will get shat on by the first Rifter that comes along) due to more dps and only 2k EHP difference (offsetted by the fact that the Cane will be shooting @ the Harbs lowest resist).

So nice try, but no, the Harbinger may be 'fine' for Amarr standards, but next to the Winmatar Cane, it's just...bad.

Edit// I was wrong sorry, plated Cane still has enough grid for launchers so if you went with launchers instead of neuts, so no matter what the Harb fits, you'd out dps the Harb on raw stats and still have more utility lol.


Exactly my friend.

The Harbinger can't even fit even a small neut on that empty high slot after putting lower tier FMP and the same plate and modules as the Hurricane does!

The hurricane can fit a full rack 220mm(which does fairly close to the dps as 425mm with lower alpha). a 1600 plate with microwarp drive. and it still have room for 2 Medium Neuts! Or it can put 2 Heavy assault launchers for more DPS.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2012-04-30 06:27:47 UTC
Wow look at all the stupid people claiming lasers suck...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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