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How highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them. Manifesto II.

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Pod Potato
Gluttonous Hungers Inc.
#421 - 2012-04-27 23:23:23 UTC
But.... but.... highsec miners are mah friends!

☻/ /▌ / \ This is Bob, post him into your forum sig and help him conquer the forums.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#422 - 2012-04-27 23:23:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:

Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe.


The fun thing...years ago....

Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#423 - 2012-04-27 23:24:31 UTC
Make sure you destroy all the evidence before the Crisis Assessment Treatment Team find you.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2012-04-27 23:27:20 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Xython wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Fuujin wrote:


And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating.



I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it.


Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining.


Righto, what can the 3 friends do?


Jump in PVP ships and fight back?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#425 - 2012-04-27 23:28:22 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY.
[…]
No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of.
…and all is as it should be.

Takseen wrote:
Plus, a tanked hulk is still perfectly gankable. Probably solo gankable, with the new BCs.
No, you can make a Hulk safe from any kind of solo gank. Also, if they were solo gankable with the new BCs, they would have been solo gankable by the good old battleships… and they weren't and still aren't.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2012-04-27 23:32:12 UTC
Xython wrote:

Jump in PVP ships and fight back?


Fight back against what? Concord will already have killed the attackers. And if my understanding of the system is correct, only the victim will have any killrights, which he'd have to pursue on his own. Likely against either 4 disposable suicide alts, or 4 highly experienced combat pilots.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#427 - 2012-04-27 23:34:02 UTC
Xython wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Xython wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Fuujin wrote:


And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating.



I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it.


Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining.


Righto, what can the 3 friends do?


Jump in PVP ships and fight back?

Note: Battle badgers or Battle Noctii don't count.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2012-04-27 23:34:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY.
[…]
No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of.
…and all is as it should be.

Takseen wrote:
Plus, a tanked hulk is still perfectly gankable. Probably solo gankable, with the new BCs.
No, you can make a Hulk safe from any kind of solo gank. Also, if they were solo gankable with the new BCs, they would have been solo gankable by the good old battleships… and they weren't and still aren't.


So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?
Trinityrose
Attack On CALDARI
Fraternity.
#429 - 2012-04-27 23:34:52 UTC
Everyone here has made some very good posts as to the issues, and I must offer major props to the OP for making such a long string of well thought out posts that make a lot of things very clear to players.


Ultimate, though, the easiest and fastest fix to the entire problem, is to redistribute the wealth of High Sec into Low/Null sec by reducing the potential income that is made in High Sec.

The comparison of risk vs reward from high sec vs null sec is incredibly imbalanced. You can amass a fortune much faster, and more easily, in higher sec systems than in lower sec when you weigh the amount of risk against it.
Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#430 - 2012-04-27 23:36:38 UTC
Very good post OP. Send the ore to null sec!

Something clever
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#431 - 2012-04-27 23:36:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:

Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe.


The fun thing...years ago....

Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures.

That's because being someone who only wants to mine doesn't change when you go to 0.0

AFK mining is one thing, but being horribly surprised when you return and are in station because of being blown up and podded is another. How much people will afk mine in 0.0 depends on various things, but blaming CONCORD when someone catches and kills your hulk/covetor isn't a factor.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#432 - 2012-04-27 23:37:56 UTC
Trinityrose wrote:
The comparison of risk vs reward from high sec vs null sec is incredibly imbalanced. You can amass a fortune much faster, and more easily, in higher sec systems than in lower sec when you weigh the amount of risk against it.

Tell that to the highsec people who claim nullsec is safer than highsec.

Actually, you don't have it, it's been done before, to very little effect.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2012-04-27 23:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Xython
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:

Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe.


The fun thing...years ago....

Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures.

That's because being someone who only wants to mine doesn't change when you go to 0.0

AFK mining is one thing, but being horribly surprised when you return and are in station because of being blown up and podded is another. How much people will afk mine in 0.0 depends on various things, but blaming CONCORD when someone catches and kills your hulk/covetor isn't a factor.



"But, but, I didn't wanna PVP, I just wanted to cheat and AFK Bot Mine in peace. CCP, FIX CONCORD~! BUFF MY SHIP!! NERF PVP!!!"


Part of the problem is that mining is so god awful boring that you would have to be autistic or a bot to enjoy it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#434 - 2012-04-27 23:39:12 UTC
Takseen wrote:
So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?


Well, the "solo" ganker is using an Orca to transport the supply of destroyers, so it balances out doesn't it?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#435 - 2012-04-27 23:39:18 UTC
Takseen wrote:
So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?
No, it can reach 32k EHP without any outside help.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#436 - 2012-04-27 23:41:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Takseen wrote:
So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?
No, it can reach 32k EHP without any outside help.

Wow, every pvper uses a boosting alt, surely a group of miners can afford one b-

Wait, that makes no sense, because they could have another hulk that would make more ISK PER HOUR.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#437 - 2012-04-27 23:45:15 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Takseen wrote:
So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?


Well, the "solo" ganker is using an Orca to transport the supply of destroyers, so it balances out doesn't it?


Fair point.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#438 - 2012-04-27 23:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
I've just gone back to the OP and read the whole of his massively long winded post, and it is long winded there's no getting around it, on reflection he does actually make some good points, it's just hidden in hyperbole. I retract my previous comment about him crying.

It's still way too damn long though, somebody who has the patience to read the whole thing and then rewrite in a concise manner would probably get less hate from those of us that looked, read 6 or 7 posts and then buggered off to do something else because it reads like something a politician would spout at a rally.

Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire?

I'm a carebear yes, but I'm willing to expand my horizons, I know this isn't recruitment, it's a hypthetical question Lol

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#439 - 2012-04-27 23:47:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Takseen wrote:
So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?
No, it can reach 32k EHP without any outside help.

Wow, every pvper uses a boosting alt, surely a group of miners can afford one b-

Wait, that makes no sense, because they could have another hulk that would make more ISK PER HOUR.


No, I suspect the Orca would be worth more. But if our "ungankable" miner is really a guy multiboxing or ortherwise grouped with an orca and 2-3 hulks, you'd have to compare that to multiple gankers.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#440 - 2012-04-27 23:49:09 UTC
One reason why I support the suicide gankers over the miners (despite not belonging to either group) is that at least the suicide gankers are intelligent enough to write well thought out argument as to why they think they are right rather than create identical whine threads like the miners do.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!