EVE General Discussion

32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY.
If it's a Mack, then forget surviving anyway.

This is why hi sec should not exist. Only defense is offense and about pre-killing those who come in. The tank poasts are just drivel made to instill a false sense of security.

No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of.

This is why when I mined it was in low sec, no morons could come in without getting busted.

Actually, what sets EVE apart from all other games currently on the market is not the non-consensual PVP - that's been done, both well and poorly - but the emergent gameplay. What both sides of this discussion, nullies and carebears alike, seem to be forgetting is that EVE is, at it's most basic, a sandbox. Not a sandbox in the sense that you can do whatever you like however you wish - if you want THAT, go play Minecraft by yourself - but in the sense that the game is what you make of it.

Face it, both mining and PVP are equally valid in this game - if they weren't valid activities, we would not be able to do them. AT. ALL. Neither the carebear push for hisec being 100% safe and risk-free nor the nullbear fight for PVP ERRYWHAR ERRYDAY is the "correct" route to take. The "correct" route to take, as CCP has demonstrated time and again, is to provide us with the tools and ability to play the game as we want to in our own individual ways. If the monotony of mining ice and rock is what entertains you, so be it. If the visceral action of small-gang PVP is your thing, that's fine too.

The point is that both sides are trying to force the other to play their way, and that isn't the right thing to do. If you want hisec miners to stop mining in hisec, give them a good reason to go to nullsec - but keep in mind that since the stick has, so far, had little effect, maybe the carrot will work better. Similarly, if you want people to stop suicide ganking, give them a good reason to do it - not by making it impossible for them to do so, but by listening to them and understanding, and maybe even offering a compromise.

Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. Do you condemn your neighbor for watching TV shows you don't watch? Of course not. So why do you condemn those who choose to play this specific game in a way different than your own? (Note: I'm not defending AFK mining or botting, I'm just saying that mining in itself is not a bad thing.)

If you're going to follow the logic of different = bad, then you might as well take it to the logical extreme and start campaigning to kill all 6,999,999,999 (give or take) other people on the planet, since there is NO other person on this Earth who is not different from you in SOME way.

The fun thing is that years ago I tried joining multiple 0.0 corps for mining and all of them refused. They only accepted pure PvP players, only 2-3 directors allowed to do industry.

Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures.

You claim the argument is true and I misinterpret it, yet provide no concrete examples.

Just saying I have doesn't mean I have. Perhaps provide examples? Most of those were essentially paraphrases of common sentiments that are quite clear and regularly touted. In fact, I'd say that the way an argument is interpreted has no effect on its truth value, just as the fact color-blind people can't see red colors doesn't mean the object isn't red. This is sort of a silly example, but it is a good way of illustrating deductive reasoning pitfalls.

If an argument is easily "misinterpretable", it is probable it is a poor argument.

Logical fallacies (of which it is abundantly clear are being used in the OP) are a good metric for how serious to take an argument. Simply put, he offers a plausible premise, but provides inadequate evidence to support it.

From the same website:
A fallacy is, very generally, an error in reasoning. This differs from a factual error, which is simply being wrong about the facts. To be more specific, a fallacy is an "argument" in which the premises given for the conclusion do not provide the needed degree of support. A deductive fallacy is a deductive argument that is invalid (it is such that it could have all true premises and still have a false conclusion). An inductive fallacy is less formal than a deductive fallacy. They are simply "arguments" which appear to be inductive arguments, but the premises do not provided enough support for the conclusion. In such cases, even if the premises were true, the conclusion would not be more likely to be true.

The burden of proof is on HIM to provide a compelling argument. Not on the reader to "get" it. If it is only understandable to some, it is a sucky argument. Which is what I was pointing out.

I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it.

Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining.

Righto, what can the 3 friends do?

Once you moved L4 to low sec won't push ANYBODY in there.

I have done L4 both in low sec and NPC 0.0, they give awesome LP (I got 14k+) and even very nice pirate items.
They do it already, right now. Still in minnie low sec we were all of 5 in local (1 was a guy in Vaga trying to kill us :D) and then moved in some other place called Gukarla (iirc) with 3 in local.

When they moved L5 to low sec, not a single hi seccer went there any more, end of.

"Better 10M per hour in hi sec than 100M per hour in low sec".

That's why hi sec should not exist.




Also, moving ice to low sec won't work either. Ice nets less than minerals, people will just all switch to minerals.

I doubt the fit is either cheap or accessible. Last guy I saw who linked one turned out to be using Tech II rigs.

I'll concede the point about the ability to possibly retaliate against a non-instant gank.

I really doubt anyone would mind you mining in your free time. I think they were just worried that when space needed defending you wouldn't help out. If you're a miner who doesn't mind doing some PvP when the alliance needs it I don't see why they wouldn't want you.


You could always join a renter corp to get your feet wet. They tend to have easier recruiting requirements and be less PvP focused. That's what I did when I came back to Eve the second time (this is the third). They spent probably about 85% of the time doing PvE stuff. We even had a nice deadspace that dropped machariel BPCs. Pretty much any 0.0 corp is going to expect you to PvP sometimes though. Letting others take all the risk while you sit back and enjoy the space they fought for is looked down on to say the least. As long as you don't refuse to join fleets when needed I wouldn't say null is unwelcoming.