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Orbital Bombardment Discussion

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Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#281 - 2012-04-13 22:02:40 UTC
OK everyone needs to watch the fanfest video again I think.

*Unless they change their minds* They said there WILL be a cool-down timer on Orbital Strikes.
Quit talking about, "OMG!! It's way to OP!! All the DUST players will hate it."


(The rest of this post is just my speculation, but I think most of my theories are logically sound.)

It's obvious in my opinion, that CCP designed the Orbital Strike (OS) to mimic the "Artillery Strikes" in the other MMOFPSs we are all familiar with. They won't be hugely OP like many are speculating. It seems that they will also offer an "Air Support" option as-well (based-on what we saw in the "future" trailer). Rest assured that neither one of these options is likely to be OP, and everything will be on a cool-down timer to prevent that.

As for the; "OMG!!! DUST-bunnies need some form of defence against OSs!!", it goes-back to the fact that the OSs aren't gonna be hugely OP. Just because one team can call-in an OS every few min or so, doesn't mean the other team should automatically have some way to counter-it. In Battlefield and other MMOFPSs, artillery strikes are just a given, NOT something that needs to be countered at every-turn. Having said that....

Someone made a reference to the "Templar One" book. I haven't read it, but apparently there is a system of ground-based anti-spaceship weapon utilized in that book. So perhaps there is a plan to incorporate something like that into DUST/EVE.

Also everyone seemst to be forgetting what they saw in the fanfest video again here. The ship that is carrying-out the OS CAN BE ATTACKED BY OTHER SHIPS! This simple fact alone should lead people to the conclusion that both DUST teams will try to hire EVE players to carry-out OSs for them. (Obviously some teams might not be able to afford such strikes.)
Logical people should also conclude from these facts that, the two factions that are hired for "Orbital Support", will be fighting each-other in an attempt to knock-out each-others' OS capabilities.

That IS the DUST-bunnies' defence agains OSs. They hire a corp of EVE players to establish "Orbital Superiority" over the battlefield to ensure they will be the only ones capable of launching OSs.

The only thing that doesn't seem to add-up for me is the financial aspect of the whole deal.
If every time an EVE player accepts a contract to provide OSs (and Orbital Superiority) over a battlefield, they risk losing at least a BS in the process (if not a whole fleet of ships), how much ISK are DUST-bunnies gonna have to pay them to accept such contracts? It would have to be on the order of hundreds of millions of ISK. IF, as I'm speculating, OSs are on the order of magnitude of an Artillery Strike, how can it possibly be worth hundreds of millions of ISK? IF they are super-powerful, end-all, "win buttons" that would justify the huge cost (I don't think so), then the whole battle would depend on who spends the most ISK to hire the best Orbital Support. There would be no point in even bothering to fight.
Tom Shaftoe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-04-14 17:48:25 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
These are my suggestions for the first iteration of orbital bombardment, based on the idea of finding a minimal working version that is still fully balanced. I do this because I know CCP wants to go slow and there are also technical challenges that need to be considered. I don't want to waste my time designing orbital bombardment version 2.0 until we've seen what version 1.0 is.
...

I think it is easy to argue that OB should be somewhat nerfed in the first iteration. It is better to err on the side of caution and have it be too weak or hard to use and have it used too little than to have it be too powerful and used too much.


Quoted to agree except for minor points like "Only in lowsec or null sec." Best post in thread, thus far.

Three comments, regarding Orbital Bombardment's ("OB"), simplicity, timing, and balance:

Simplicity

No one below a Dust commander should have to deal with launch codes. OB should be managed for both Eve and Dust players, as simply as a common ammunition pool. For an Eve player (who is in position over a planet and targeting a Dust battlefield) activating his OB module triggers a transfer of ammunition, from his turrets that are loaded with Small, Medium, Large, or Extra Large OB ammo, to the Dust match. The Dust team commander has his preferences set for what ranks or standings are required to use the OB ammo when it becomes available. Every Dust player, who is skilled and equipped with beacons or targeting lasers and has the appropriate permissions, should be able to call in OB like using any other weapon (as easily as calling in an artillery strike in CoD, or any other FPS.)

Timing

OB timing is driven by the match duration. A cap pilot shouldn't provide multiple volleys in a single 20 minute Dust match; each cap pilot should provide one OB shot per turret, per Dust match. For each cap pilot in orbit, Dust players can anticipate OB hitting somewhere between 10 to 20 minutes into the match, which opens the possibility of completing the Dust objective before an Extra Large OB can complete its warm up (which can also be conceived as a "getting into OB position" timer from when the OB module is activated by a ship at the singular planetary warp in point).

Eve turret size - warm up (before Dust players can use your OB) -OB module duration (like siege duration):
Small turrets - ~2 minute warm up - 3 minute OB module duration,
Medium turrets - ~3 minute warm up - 4 minute OB module duration,
Large turrets - ~6 to 7 minute warm up - 7 to 8 minute OB module duration,
Extra Large turrets - 10 to 15 minute warm up - 12 to 18 minute OB module duration.

Quote:
Evalyn's got great OB skills, so she can provide 3 volleys from her Battleship to her Dust team mates in a 20 minute match. Erik can fly a dread, but his OB skills suck, so that if his weak Dust corpmates are up against a fast Dust team that can achieve their Dust objectives in under 15 minutes, he won't even be able to bring his dread into position to fire on the enemy Dust players before the match ends. Erik brings his BS, so he can get at least 2 volleys in, to help his allied Dust newbs hold out against the Dust Veterans coming to slaughter them.


Balance

As portrayed in the footage we've seen so far, the Extra Large OB should be devastating, rare, but also potentially too late, as the timing above suggests. I only agree with Claire regarding the "no OB in high sec" point in as much as capital ships capable of Extra Large OB would already be prohibited from highsec. Small and medium turret OBs shouldn't be so much more powerful than tank fire within Dust, as to be prohibited in high sec. I'd rather see a standard default concord buff to high sec planetary defenses to keep Large turret OB from being overpowered, than a full prohibition against OB in high sec.

The large turret OB shown at fan fest didn't seem wildly overpowered, but we haven't seen the other side of that coin yet, so its impossible to tell until we see planetary defense/offense.

A small turret OB should be about as damaging as the biggest gun on a Dust player's tank (and firing no more than 1/8th as often as the tank. Medium turret OBs should be about twice as damaging as a tank's main gun. Its the volleying of this damage that can make it useful for breaking choke points toughened by good logistic support.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#283 - 2012-04-14 18:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Tom Shaftoe wrote:
Claire Voyant wrote:
These are my suggestions for the first iteration of orbital bombardment, based on the idea of finding a minimal working version that is still fully balanced. I do this because I know CCP wants to go slow and there are also technical challenges that need to be considered. I don't want to waste my time designing orbital bombardment version 2.0 until we've seen what version 1.0 is.
...

I think it is easy to argue that OB should be somewhat nerfed in the first iteration. It is better to err on the side of caution and have it be too weak or hard to use and have it used too little than to have it be too powerful and used too much.


Quoted to agree except for minor points like "Only in lowsec or null sec." Best post in thread, thus far.

Three comments, regarding Orbital Bombardment's ("OB"), simplicity, timing, and balance:

Simplicity

No one below a Dust commander should have to deal with launch codes. OB should be managed for both Eve and Dust players, as simply as a common ammunition pool. For an Eve player (who is in position over a planet and targeting a Dust battlefield) activating his OB module triggers a transfer of ammunition, from his turrets that are loaded with Small, Medium, Large, or Extra Large OB ammo, to the Dust match. The Dust team commander has his preferences set for what ranks or standings are required to use the OB ammo when it becomes available. Every Dust player, who is skilled and equipped with beacons or targeting lasers and has the appropriate permissions, should be able to call in OB like using any other weapon (as easily as calling in an artillery strike in CoD, or any other FPS.)

Timing

OB timing is driven by the match duration. A cap pilot shouldn't provide multiple volleys in a single 20 minute Dust match; each cap pilot should provide one OB shot per turret, per Dust match. For each cap pilot in orbit, Dust players can anticipate OB hitting somewhere between 10 to 20 minutes into the match, which opens the possibility of completing the Dust objective before an Extra Large OB can complete its warm up (which can also be conceived as a "getting into OB position" timer from when the OB module is activated by a ship at the singular planetary warp in point).

Eve turret size - warm up (before Dust players can use your OB) -OB module duration (like siege duration):
Small turrets - ~2 minute warm up - 3 minute OB module duration,
Medium turrets - ~3 minute warm up - 4 minute OB module duration,
Large turrets - ~6 to 7 minute warm up - 7 to 8 minute OB module duration,
Extra Large turrets - 10 to 15 minute warm up - 12 to 18 minute OB module duration.

Quote:
Evalyn's got great OB skills, so she can provide 3 volleys from her Battleship to her Dust team mates in a 20 minute match. Erik can fly a dread, but his OB skills suck, so that if his weak Dust corpmates are up against a fast Dust team that can achieve their Dust objectives in under 15 minutes, he won't even be able to bring his dread into position to fire on the enemy Dust players before the match ends. Erik brings his BS, so he can get at least 2 volleys in, to help his allied Dust newbs hold out against the Dust Veterans coming to slaughter them.


Balance

As portrayed in the footage we've seen so far, the Extra Large OB should be devastating, rare, but also potentially too late, as the timing above suggests. I only agree with Claire regarding the "no OB in high sec" point in as much as capital ships capable of Extra Large OB would already be prohibited from highsec. Small and medium turret OBs shouldn't be so much more powerful than tank fire within Dust, as to be prohibited in high sec. I'd rather see a standard default concord buff to high sec planetary defenses to keep Large turret OB from being overpowered, than a full prohibition against OB in high sec.

The large turret OB shown at fan fest didn't seem wildly overpowered, but we haven't seen the other side of that coin yet, so its impossible to tell until we see planetary defense/offense.

A small turret OB should be about as damaging as the biggest gun on a Dust player's tank (and firing no more than 1/8th as often as the tank. Medium turret OBs should be about twice as damaging as a tank's main gun. Its the volleying of this damage that can make it useful for breaking choke points toughened by good logistic support.


Im sorry.

This is Eve. Not risk or a game of Worms. I do not play turn based MMOs. Over here, we fire in real time, jump in big ass ships that should wtfown asshats running around the surface, bring more deeps in space to counter, facerape with unimaginable odds, ~deal with it~ and all that jazz.

We dont wait for some stupid timer before we can shoot.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tom Shaftoe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2012-04-14 18:32:18 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
IWe dont wait for some stupid timer before we can shoot.


Thanks for the insight; I'll be sure to sell all my strontium immediately.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-04-14 18:41:29 UTC
Kill mails(reports?)!!!

If I do an orbital bombardment(s) then after the match there should be a kill report or something to show what I did. Also if I get blown up there should be one for that as well.
Gorinia Sanford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#286 - 2012-04-14 21:18:27 UTC
Just a thought, what about an option to suicide the ship into the planet? Say the ship is going to die anyway due to fighting off the target's allied ships, why not have the option to nose dive into the planet?
Rundle Allnighter
No Fox Given
Already Replaced.
#287 - 2012-04-18 01:27:34 UTC
Awesome ideas! And thanks for asking!!

Here is my input:

1) As others have stated. Feedback! I would love to have a picture in picture sort of feature that lets me see the results of my orbital actions. Even limited to an aerial view to limit fine detail would be awesome.

2) Regarding precision bombing vs. carpet bombing. I want to do this: B-52 Stratofortress Carpet Bombing


I've had my mind on some other things so I'll be back with more ideas I'm sure!

**Need more? **Read more of what I have to say at my blog EVE All Night. **Still not satisfied?  **Come listen to me with Jade on the Lost in EVE Podcasts!
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#288 - 2012-04-27 18:55:43 UTC
Hey!

I'm sorry for not being more actively involved in this thread but it's for a reason.

We wanted to hear your ideas and your speculation amongst yourselves without directing the conversation. For the same reason I won't even try to answer all your questions. I can reiterate a key point though.

The Orbital Warfare experience will be treated as a "whole" with several tiers of gameplay, including incentives for traditional EVE gameplay. These conceptual tiers contain things you can do such as the Orbital Strike we showed at fanfest. Each tier will have it's own investment/risk/reward.

What I am getting at is that the Orbital Strike you saw at fanfest lives in the sort of "medium-rare" tier. Therefor we won't suddenly make the impact of the Abaddon strike 10x more powerful, because that sort of devastation belongs in the top tier with another ship and possibly other mechanics. To give you something semi-concrete. We want to do something bigger and something smaller to compliment the Battleship Orbital Strike.

And by the way, my scale goes like this: Rare -> Medium Rare -> Medium - >Well done. Don't argue Blink


Thanks a lot for your incredible dedication and effort in bringing us this feedback it is truly being used.

Best regards
Omen

(Caveat: Even though Battleships are great candidates there are no absolute guarantees untill we release a dev blog with details)

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#289 - 2012-04-27 19:01:32 UTC
Also confirming that CCP Omen literally read every word in this thread. I sat and watched him do it.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#290 - 2012-04-27 19:02:38 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Also confirming that CCP Omen literally read every word in this thread. I sat and watched him do it.


Also confirming that Nullarbor apparently needs more to do with his day.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#291 - 2012-04-27 20:38:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Also confirming that CCP Omen literally read every word in this thread. I sat and watched him do it.


Also confirming that Nullarbor apparently needs more to do with his day.


I like to watch.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
TRUE ZER0
SILENT INC
#292 - 2012-04-27 21:13:55 UTC
In before lock
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#293 - 2012-04-27 21:55:52 UTC
as cool as the orbital strike was, i was a little confused witht he effects of the orbital strike that looked more like a much smaller laser strike rather than an artillery strike as the abadon was fitted with projectiles which should ahve produced a more "explosive" effect rather than a precision light show,also considering the size of the guns themselfs the AOE imho should have been much wider by a factor of maybe 2 or 3 even for a preccision strike. ....

also i do like the thouhgt of some after effects on the battlefield depending on what weapon was used by the ship in orbit and the size of the strike and could be dependent on the type of planet also,

forinstance a projectile bombardment could on a barran planet produce a huge dust cloud that takes a long time to settle reduceing the visibuilitydrasticly int he imidiate vacinity and possably a modorate effect for slightly further out..
Maga
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2012-05-06 00:21:37 UTC
Not sure, if this was proposed before, but let only dreads do orbital strikes.
If you want to help your fellow marines, then commit for atleast the "siege timer". Iam guessing this would bring more pilots getting involved and cooperate with marines.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#295 - 2012-05-06 00:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Sydney Nelson wrote:
IF they are super-powerful, end-all, "win buttons" that would justify the huge cost (I don't think so), then the whole battle would depend on who spends the most ISK to hire the best Orbital Support. There would be no point in even bothering to fight.

I seem to be remembering ...

ah right, Titans.


Oh look, it's the yellow team, they're famous for cheap OS spamming. Better just give up now.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#296 - 2012-05-06 00:58:22 UTC
Very cool; I like what I'm seing. Shocking that I didn't see that before when I was perusing the fanfest videos though. I'm not sure about everything I saw, but I'm thinking I'll figure it out and whether I like it and/or it works well in game. Merc quarters and war room are very nice too. Hadn't thought to see that implementation so soon.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#297 - 2012-05-06 00:59:01 UTC
Tom Shaftoe wrote:
Eve turret size - warm up (before Dust players can use your OB) -OB module duration (like siege duration):
Small turrets - ~2 minute warm up - 3 minute OB module duration,
Medium turrets - ~3 minute warm up - 4 minute OB module duration,
Large turrets - ~6 to 7 minute warm up - 7 to 8 minute OB module duration,
Extra Large turrets - 10 to 15 minute warm up - 12 to 18 minute OB module duration.


Just remember that the capsuleer was in place with their fleet at the time that they issued the contract for some Dust Bunnies to knock out the planetary shields which are preventing the capsuleer taking out the POCO. What's this "warm up" nonsense.

If I'm going to use orbital bombardment, it's going to be starting from the moment it's safe to park in orbit over the target zone. My Dust Bunnies are going to be focussing on taking out the sky fire cannon (disabling power? hacking the mainframe?), then wandering around the place lighting up targets for the spaceships to rain fire upon.

If that planet doesn't have orbital defences, it's going to be suffering orbital bombardment from the moment anyone on the ground can light a target painter.

Sure, time between rounds might be determined by my skill at realigning the ship, calibrating the OB launch devices, etc. But that first round is going off the moment a Dust Bunny can give me an accurate target. Well … maybe sooner if I'm in a rush. I'm not picky.

I imagine that it will be just as important for the defending team to maintain the planetary defences as it is to shoot the invading team. Perhaps Dust Bunnies will have a skill to train in order to use the sky fire cannon, similar to capsuleers using Starbase Defense Operation? You'll want one of those on your team if you don't like OB.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Bane Loppknow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2012-05-06 01:10:03 UTC
Whatever the case, I'm really hoping DUST is so awesome it convinces my friends to get ps3s and join me in New Eden, because they're certainly not going to get a gaming rig and play EVE.
Rolyat Aideron
#299 - 2012-06-16 12:58:08 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:

(Caveat: Even though Battleships are great candidates there are no absolute guarantees untill we release a dev blog with details)


\o/
destroyers with orbital strike advantage from the ship balancing Dev Blog.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

Dev Blog wrote:
We also have another plan with destroyers: just like battlecruisers are used for gang warfare support, we are thinking to provide destroyers with an additional role. Since DUST514 is approaching and we want to forge both games into the same universe, they will receive some advantage for planetary bombardment, which should make them even more popular that they currently are.


Begin discussion.

Pilot & Soldier of New Eden

Domin Mitauchi
SONS of LEGION
#300 - 2012-06-17 16:07:46 UTC
Rolyat Aideron wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:

(Caveat: Even though Battleships are great candidates there are no absolute guarantees untill we release a dev blog with details)


\o/
destroyers with orbital strike advantage from the ship balancing Dev Blog.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

Dev Blog wrote:
We also have another plan with destroyers: just like battlecruisers are used for gang warfare support, we are thinking to provide destroyers with an additional role. Since DUST514 is approaching and we want to forge both games into the same universe, they will receive some advantage for planetary bombardment, which should make them even more popular that they currently are.


Begin discussion.



This is going to be awesome as long as they implement some sort of scaling. For example, the damage done and area of effect of destroyers should be far less to that of a capital. I wonder how they will do cool downs? Surely you can not just roll up to a planet and have troops call in strike after strike.

"We are everywhere for your conveince"

www.riseoflegion.com