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How highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them. Manifesto II.

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L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2012-04-27 17:31:25 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
And none of us are denying being care bears, I even know a few goons that spend most of their time bearing it up, what we do object to is to risk averse high sec carebears that want to kill PvP and just sit in their high sec safe zones with tol barad guards concord fighting their fights for them.


Basically my point is: Make going out on your own and fighting your own fights less destructive to your wallet and less unfair (see my edit in last post). Why would anyone want to go out there knowing that there are traps, traps, traps everywhere, without any chance for real fights, and if you lose, you lose a LOT.


Whatever would fix the problem the OP stated would be a very big change to the game, so, wont really happen.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#342 - 2012-04-27 17:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners

That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all.

I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server.

Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve.

If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready Twisted

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2012-04-27 17:35:40 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Takseen wrote:
There's also the fact that offensive dps increases have massively outstripped increases in tank for miners. T2 guns, faction ammo, artillery buffed to be alpha gods, a whole heap of different skills that can be dumped into dps increases, and not a whole lot that can increase your tank, especially passive tank.

If you constantly buff a pirate's ability to lock and kill ****, and only buff a miner's mining yield, suicide ganking is just the natural progression.

If you continually allow everyone in high sec to easily evade war decs, and to continue earning non-meaningless amounts of ISK, then suicide ganking is the natural progression. In fact, it is the only course of action left.


Very true. That's a symptom of the attacker favoured war dec system. If a miner corp had more incentive to stick around and put up a fight in a defensive war, there'd be less need to rely on suicide ganks. Some ideas off the top of my head

-if corps offered bonuses the longer they'd been in existence and the more activities they'd carried out, dropping corp to avoid wardecs would be less attractive.
-mercenaries should be able to "guarantee the safety" of miner corps. If anyone decs the miners, they get a cheaper counter dec.
-some way to force conflict. Even if it was as simple as the attacker setting up a structure, call it a flag, somewhere in highsec. If the flag gets taken out by the defenders, the attackers are forced to surrender, or maybe just financially penalised. This offers the defenders a clear way to end the way if they can gain a combat advantage, even if its just piling everyone into a bunch of rifters.

Oh and you'd need to fix neutral remote reps, if they haven't already.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#344 - 2012-04-27 17:37:08 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:


Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase.
The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them.

Unless they become less efficient relative to another area of space. Say, null sec and low sec.

Then you pay them marginally less, and miners outside of high sec slightly more.

Is there something complicated about this concept?[/quote]

Yes, the complicated concept is that you are deluded if you believe 0.0 miners with bother with Trit and Pyerite. They have ABC, they don't have endless trillions of room to store bulky low value per m3 low ends.

Therefore reduce the hi sec efficiency and make me richer, since I am mining in the mineral markets and as of now just doubled the value of the stuff I am holding. Pirate

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Exie
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#345 - 2012-04-27 17:39:22 UTC
Mentorm wrote:
Too Long Didn't Read
Alabaster Ra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2012-04-27 17:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alabaster Ra
First congrats on your orca kills. Sounds like you put a lot of time into them, so your satisfaction is understandable.

The main thing I got from this however is: I'm evil. SWEET. Never fired a shot at a player and yet I'm evil. By which I of course mean, everything is going according to plan, all according to plan.

To at least some extent, you are correct. I was attracted to EvE for the scandal, espionage, null sec politics, and banking scams. It just turns out that I love producing things and mining a hell of a lot more than blowing ships up. As a carebear, I will admit to wanting a safe high sec where others really can't ruin my day "for the lulz". However, I think you have over estimated the value we place on such a paradise. While it sometimes makes me drool to think about, I know that isn't EvE. I'm here because production does involve risk. I'm here because people can use the tools at their disposal for creation or destruction. In preservation of that freedom, I will never seriously ask for or expect safety. Instead, I'll happily take (and/or abuse) whatever tools CCP chooses to give me and accept what risks I must with a watchful eye on local, a pre-aligned ship, and my finger on the warp option.

I'm so happy with the mineral changes I legitimately hope you pvp'rs get something nice in the coming months. I know the changes hit the smash and brawl crowd hard. Of course, whatever that change is, I'll probably be a whole lot less happy once its implemented >.>
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#347 - 2012-04-27 17:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lapine Davion
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners

That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all.

I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server.

Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve.

If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready Twisted


I read the OP and then avoided the rest of the thread. Can you quote me the parts where the OP cried?

Edit: FMP

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#348 - 2012-04-27 17:51:56 UTC
Exie wrote:
Mentorm wrote:
Too Long Can't Read



FYP

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
#349 - 2012-04-27 17:52:18 UTC
I've never seen someone use so many words to say so little. (...and I work for the government so that's saying something)

TLDR version: CCP is killing PVP and it's all the carebear's fault..
Kazacy
BACKFIRE Squad
#350 - 2012-04-27 17:52:23 UTC
to the OP:
it was a long but also very good read; thank you.
Ostrine Renalard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2012-04-27 18:06:14 UTC
I wish I could like this 1000 times
Radax Glenn
Church of the Black Hand
#352 - 2012-04-27 18:08:44 UTC
With all due respect, to the OP: Holy F***ing S***, Dude!

While I can appreciate the time and effort you put into this, it has several logical fallacies, and at times it comes off as a little creepy. Not intentionally trying to flame/troll here, and it's clear you have a passionate investment in your work: but most of the arguments you listed are weak.

I fully support Ganking Botters when you find them.
I also agree that AFK mining should be curbed to a degree. (Meaning, if I have to run go take wizz for 2, that should be cool, but the reports I hear of people mining while AFK for hours at a time I agree need to be stopped.)

I mine in hi-sec, and the gankers keep me on my toes. The gankers give an element of danger and the potential for loss on a scale the NPC rats were never intended to do in hi-sec.

So, IMHO from Joe Nobody:

A+ for Effort
D- for Substance
F for Delivery
Zordon
Replacements R Us
Goonswarm Federation
#353 - 2012-04-27 18:13:17 UTC
So true 315...

I will stand by the believer and continue to ****, pillage, harass, and annihilate all carebears and non-believers in high-sec... Manifesto II is the NEW New Eden Bible. I shall live by the words put forth here and cleanse the filth from our servers.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#354 - 2012-04-27 18:13:26 UTC
Radax Glenn wrote:
With all due respect, to the OP: Holy F***ing S***, Dude!

While I can appreciate the time and effort you put into this, it has several logical fallacies, and at times it comes off as a little creepy. Not intentionally trying to flame/troll here, and it's clear you have a passionate investment in your work: but most of the arguments you listed are weak.

I fully support Ganking Botters when you find them.
I also agree that AFK mining should be curbed to a degree. (Meaning, if I have to run go take wizz for 2, that should be cool, but the reports I hear of people mining while AFK for hours at a time I agree need to be stopped.)

I mine in hi-sec, and the gankers keep me on my toes. The gankers give an element of danger and the potential for loss on a scale the NPC rats were never intended to do in hi-sec.

So, IMHO from Joe Nobody:

A+ for Effort
D- for Substance
F for Delivery


If you go AFK you run the risk of being popped. Maybe you need to be reminded of this?

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Radax Glenn
Church of the Black Hand
#355 - 2012-04-27 18:21:58 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
If you go AFK you run the risk of being popped. Maybe you need to be reminded of this?


True enough.

I mine in Nakugard all the time, you are more than welcome to try. Smile
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#356 - 2012-04-27 18:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Lapine Davion wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners

That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all.

I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server.

Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve.

If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready Twisted


I read the OP and then avoided the rest of the thread. Can you quote me the parts where the OP cried?

Edit: FMP



I was being literal, I lost enough braincells reading it the first time Ugh, I'm not doing it again. In retrospect crying was probably the wrong word to use, but along with tears it's such a fashionable word right now from both PVE and PVP sides of the arguement that I inadvertently joined the sheeple Oops. It still made no sense but that may because my attention span wandered after about post # 6 and I started to watch my little pony on youtube to recover some sanity P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#357 - 2012-04-27 18:50:41 UTC
Radax Glenn wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
If you go AFK you run the risk of being popped. Maybe you need to be reminded of this?


True enough.

I mine in Nakugard all the time, you are more than welcome to try. Smile



I've gone AFK while mining. Sometimes I got popped, sometimes, I didn't. If I go AFK while undocked I fully expect to be popped. If you have to go AFK, dock up. It isn't hard.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#358 - 2012-04-27 18:51:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners

That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all.

I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server.

Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve.

If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready Twisted


I read the OP and then avoided the rest of the thread. Can you quote me the parts where the OP cried?

Edit: FMP



I was being literal, I lost enough braincells reading it the first time Ugh, I'm not doing it again. In retrospect crying was probably the wrong word to use, but along with tears it's such a fashionable word right now from both PVE and PVP sides of the arguement that I inadvertently joined the sheeple Oops. It still made no sense but that may because my attention span wandered after about post # 6 and I started to watch my little pony on youtube to recover some sanity P


I hear Adderall does wonders for the attention span.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#359 - 2012-04-27 18:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Lapine Davion wrote:
I hear Adderall does wonders for the attention span.


lol, so does not being bored to tears by a long winded multipost that could have summed up in the first 3 posts.

Adderall and Ritalen don't play nice with my current prescription anyway P

Nothing against the OP, but by gum they should consider writing speeches for politicians, they specialise at saying not a lot with an awful lot of words Straight. Me, I prefer short, sweet and to the point.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#360 - 2012-04-27 19:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Eledar
Your post is comprehensive, but it has several problems; most notably:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html <---It's in the title. You basically state (and assume) that miners ruin the game from the start before you even begin your analysis.
and
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html <-----"miners want x but do it because of y, therefore their desire for x is invalid"

See also:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html <----- see OP post title
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-spite.html <---"carebear scum" "chickens" etc.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-fear.html <------ ":ruining your game, ccp hates pvpers, eve turning into wow etc"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html <-----"used to be this way" ergo "better"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html <----- "either get rid of miners/stop them or eve fails"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html <--used to discredit miners' arguments
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html <----used to discredit high profile industrial player's opinions
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html <---- "if ccp keeps supporting the miner lifestyle, eve will become WoW"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html <---do you enjoy mining? do you like mining? or are you prejudiced towards miners due to botters? are all pvpers the same too?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/division.html <-related in this instance
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html <-----"eve is a pvp game, miners are avoiding the proper way to play eve" (this is the most common argument against indy I seem to see).
"eve is a pvp game because it has pvp." Compelling.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/spotlight.html <----related to botters
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html <--- used to misrepresent miner views of pvpers and other playstyles
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ignoring-a-common-cause.html <-----miners causing inflation and nothing else; ignores the complex relatiionships of eve
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html <----eve is far more complex than a----->b, see above
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html <-----related
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html <----is eve capable of being "ruined"? is it on the miners automatically?

You gave us a wall of text; I present you with one and request you reciprocate.

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.